I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once, and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years; but I think the total focus on making the experience as good as possible combined with Microsoft's budget and a little time will yield very impressive results. I certainly hope so.
I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable for most.
It's already yielded impressive results for me. I bought a SP1 at a big discount, hoping to use it only for digital artwork. I didn't have my hopes too high, as I was aware of all the criticism it had drawn (though honestly, the tech press of today is utterly ridiculous. There's a couple of holdouts of excellent coverage, but for the most part it's comprised of a frothing band of gadget fanboys).
I didn't expect to end up loving the SP1 so much. I'll never be able to go back to a tablet without split-screen multitasking, or to a small laptop without touchscreen and stylus input. Everything else feels incredibly rudimentary in comparison.
The first-generation SP has a good deal of flaws, but none of them have been dealbreakers for me. This is the first device I've truly loved so thoroughly, ever. It feels like it's truly pushing the envelope.
the blunt truth is Windows 8 is excellent for a mobile/tablet OS, and absolutely horrible as a desktop OS.
So Microsoft needs to just get it's act together and put out/fix/resolve the Desktop OS and focus the tiled OS on mobile and THEN they might be able to gain ground.
A single USB3 port can be used to dock to keyboard, mouse, monitor and ethernet - thats what I do with my Surface Pro 1. Just needed a few cheap hubs and adapters. A proper dock would be nice but its not strictly necessary.
You do know there is a proper dock, that taps into the device's USB, DisplayPort and charging port to provide excellent, all-in-one, no-cables-to-plug-in-device experience, right?
Yes. But I could not get one very easily (because generally I only buy second hand kit). I have an improvised docking station made of 2nd hand usb components that is also very small so I can take it to client sites with me and dock my surface into the keyboards, mice, monitors and ethernet that they have on site. The point of my post above was to remind people that they dont need a docking station to 'dock' a surface.
Wait, so USB 3 still doesn't solve the problem of "Host needs to draw power from the connection"? That the connection has to be in client/charging mode or hosting-periphs/supplying-power mode?
That's always been a massive disapointment in USB - the fact that you can't host and draw power through the same port at the same time. Big part of the reason you don't see many docks for non-iOS devices.
>and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years
I think they know exactly where things are going to in the next five years, yet they will try their best to arrive late. Remember the MS Courier?
I believe the future is going to be a hybrid of mobile and desktop. Its already happening with the web and other OSes especially Win8 and Ubuntu (Ubuntu mobile that turns into a full fledged desktop when docked in). So technically MS is on the right track, they are just a bit too early - 70's Groovy in the mid 60's. The biggest gripe I have with them is that sometimes they make something very good and then mess up something very little in a very noticeable way. Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature. I have the Surface Pro I and its perfect for my needs except when I am out of wifi or need directions. Just put in a GPS and 4G already. I have waited for 2 iterations now.
I was talking about MS have the right idea but failing to go though with it. MS Courier concept was introduced well before the iPad, suggesting someone there believed that it was going to be the future but they ended up killing it before the board din't agree to it.
Similarly, they were already working on a voice assistant called "Tell Me" even before Siri was introduced by Apple [1].
A lot of people think MS doesn't come up with great ideas but its quite the opposite. They just fail to execute it in a timely manner or require a few iterations to get it perfect.
Ideas are cheap, execution is everything. You said it yourself, "MS Courier" was a concept - it wasn't actually a product. Your average gifted 13 year old can come up with a lot of great concepts, the challenge is in actually creating them.
Even Apple is running into this - Siri requires a rock solid Wireless connection, without it, Siri no longer works, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mobile voice assistant.
'Courier was much more than a clever vision. The team, which had more than 130 Microsoft employees contributing to it, had created several prototypes that gave a clear sense about the type of experience users would get. There were still tough hardware and software issues to resolve when Microsoft pulled the plug. But an employee who worked on Courier said the project was far enough along that the remaining work could have been completed in months if the company had added more people to the team. "There was extensive work done on the business, the technology and the experience," said a member of the Courier team. "It was very complete, not a whim."'
> [...] but they ended up killing it before the board din't agree to it.
The technology when they 'announced' it was one thing, I'm not sure that we have the technology today to make the Courier practical. Getting it thin and light enough at that size, but keeping good battery life would be a real challenge.
>I was talking about MS have the right idea but failing to go though with it. MS Courier concept was introduced well before the iPad,
It was introduced before the iPad product -- but not before the iPad concept, which Apple was working on far before the iPhone's introduction.
The Courrier (shown in 2008) was actually a PR envisioning of what the rumored Apple tablet will be. And, as something that came out after the iPhone, it wasn't that hard to think of.
Heck, Apple had similar concepts from the nineties even -- including the "voice assistant" thing, but I don't think those count. Execution and brinding a solid offering to market counts.
--> They just fail to execute it in a timely manner or require a few iterations to get it perfect <--
You nailed it, it's kinda like when a Windows version came out. 2000 and Millenium were bad. XP was great. Vista was bad, SP1 was better and SP2 was great. People just remember Vista without the SP's. Windows 7 was what i needed, but that seemed like SP3 for Vista, only they named it Windows 7.
Then you have Windows 8, which will probably go a similar way like Vista did.
2000 was great. When XP came out a lot of people complained about how they added bloat and pointlessly screwed with the shell. (By this I mean explorer, not how Unix users understand the term "shell".) I felt that way too. XP got a little better as hardware improved and SP2 fixed some issues, then Vista made everyone forget what they hated before and suddenly XP was the "lean" one.
(Actually the more likely explanation is that the 2000-using XP-haters and the XP-using Vista-haters are not the same people. Maybe the former group gave up and no longer cares about Windows.)
I don't know, it seems to work for the car industry. Almost every new vehicle floats around the major shows as a 'concept' to gauge public reaction and perception before making it into production having taken onboard a large number of changes.
Almost every new vehicle floats arount as a concept, but at the same time almost every concept that floats around the major shows never makes to an actual production vehicle - because even if the people like it, they often are too impractical to make or too expensive for their target market&competition.
Except Windows 8 is a bad user experience for Desktop. Great for mobile, and even though it is a 'full-fledged OS', it actually makes things HARDER for users, so much so that they continue to lose Desktop market share, even in corporations. They have got to get it through their heads that a mobile/desktop hybrid does not mean 'One UI for all possible devices'. That seems obvious to me, but it sure hasn't happened.
And Microsoft was trying to push a tablet YEARS before the iPad came along and wowed everyone. They just did it really, really badly and didn't market their efforts well. Kind of like what is happening with Windows 8. If history repeats itself, Apple or Google or Someone New will come along, present the public with the SAME CONCEPT as Windows 8 but do it right and everyone will again claim Microsoft was late to the party. They've never had a lack of vision, but always have had problems with execution.
Why the hell didn't they bring this guy in as a design consultant? His desires reflect exactly what's missing from the market: a high res tablet with precise input for the mobile artist. I have been waiting for such a product since at least 2004 (bought my first Intuos 3 in 2005).
I've actually been googling "penny-arcade surface pro 3" waiting for this review. And please, please don't tell me about the iPad's wonderful art apps. My feature request became the first commit when Inkpad (easily the best iPad vector drawing app) went open source. Give me a computer with the input resolution of 0.3 mm pencil, or 0.05 mm pen, on high quality paper. I actually use pens under a microscope. Input resolution, Apple. Do you hear me?
I think Microsoft has winning hardware in this machine. Can I load Ubuntu?
I have a few coworkers who have them. The hardware itself is pretty nice, but the support has been awful when she's tried to deal with a problem she had with the power adapter. Her power adapter connection was too loose and wouldn't charge the device; her coworkers' power adapters worked perfectly in hers, though, so it was just the AC adapter.
She spent about a month arguing with them and not being able to use the device because she couldn't charge it. They kept saying it was a software issue and to reinstall, even though she could wiggle the power adapter and get it to connect.
Other than that, the hardware is good, much better than the Surface from an artist perspective (and several of our artists have shelled out over two grand for a Companion after seeing hers, and none have bought a Surface).
Sorry to hear that about Wacom's customer support. I've had problems with their old wired tablets before, with the wire breaking internally or something and making the tablet useless, so I can feel some of her pain.
What kind of apps do they use for Android when drawing with it?
I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've been pretty happy with it overall.
I see what you're saying but there's no "never show me anything Metro, ever" checkbox, and for me that's a problem. I've got a Lenovo touchpad and the user experience over the months has involved learning not to accidentally make all the myriad gestures that cause Windows 8 to do something stupid.
I keep discovering new ones, I think in part due to the 8.1 update. Perhaps that's not why, it's hard to say. This is all a purely negative process for me: trying to keep the PC from doing something I don't want it to do. Apparently driver writers and Microsoft don't want to give you an official "make this trackpad not act stupid" option, either, last I checked.
Thats Lenovo's fault not Microsoft's, drivers haven't been a problem in ages. I have both a Macbook Retina and desktop gaming PC. I hand built the PC and all of the drivers automatically downloaded and installed. The only thing I ever did after that was update AMD Catalyst for my 280x's, but that was my choice; it worked fine before I updated. You probably updated to 8.1 before Lenovo updated its drivers or bought an old touchpad that was actually meant for Windows 7 and is no longer supported by them. Touchpad's are also a niche product use case, 99% of users use mice, laptop track-pads or touchscreens. Thus touchpads will never be a priority for driver development teams.
As for the learning curve, have you ever seen a lifetime Windows user try someone else's Mac? Hot Corners drive them absolutely crazy, or they will accidentally pinch to zoom or they will scroll by mistake and not realize whats happening. There is always a learning curve, even in the most user friendly operating systems like iOS. And what actual computer do you have? The problem is people use a $400 Dell and then compare it to a $2000 Retina or $1200 Air. The Surface Pro 3 is a premium Apple like device, and what do you know, early reviews from places like The Verge say its the best possible Windows 8 experience. My Mac and my PC cost about the same, and I love each of them for different reasons. Each OS has its own pros and cons.
As for metro, what are you doing that causes Metro to show up? On my desktop, I have almost never seen it since 8.1 came out. Once you enable boot to desktop and pin your most widely used programs to the taskbar, the only time it ever shows up is when you are looking for a rarely used program. Even then it is actually pretty good when you think of it as nothing more than an advanced start menu replacement. And in the next update MS is making an option to do just that: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-men.... The real problem is Windows doesn't automatically detect what hardware is connected and change the settings to ones like these automatically.
I can't speak for Lenovo, but here's my experience with an Asus laptop.
When I use my right index finger to move the cursor around, if my palm nudges the palm rest, it usually activates some kind of gesture that switches to Metro.
If I use my right index finger to move the cursor around and my left index finger or thumb to click, then that activates some gesture that switches to metro.
If I'm typing and my palms touch the mousepad, that activates some gesture that switches to metro.
If you've never seen it once on your desktop, I would guess that it's because you don't have a touchpad that lets Windows interpret random touches as a "go to metro now!" command.
I won't say it works for everyone but on my Lenovo y510p, I can change the settings for the ELAN pointing device to disable my trackpad when there is an external mouse attached. If I have to use the computer for more than a few minutes, I make sure I plug in my mouse. (It isn't made to be an ultraportable / on top of a lap laptop notebook computer as the air intake is at the bottom.)
The surface would, of course, need to work well without a mouse. Perhaps the pen could be used as a pointing device in desktop mode as well?
I found the jump to macbook from a Windows laptop to be quite easy and friendly. That sorry of thing never bothers me.
>As for metro, what are you doing that causes Metro to show up?
There are various gestures (in my case, quite literally always made by mistake) a person can make on the trackpad that cause random metro behavior. Swiping from the side or top and so on, very easy to do with a large trackpad by mistake.
Your comments about lenovo are off base in this instance. The problem with the trackpad is that it's working as Microsoft intended.
> Type "swiping" on the start screen. The first option listed is "Choose to allow swiping from touchpad edges"
Doesn't bring anything up at all on my Lenovo with 8.1. The option doesn't seem to be in PC settings either. Tried searching on "touchpad" as well. Let's see...
Your mentioning that this now exists did inspire me to dig a little more... the setting I needed was buried in the Lenovo-specific "thinkpad" tab under mouse properties: "enable gestures" on the OLD control panel.
Searching on "swiping" instead in the manner you described wouldn't actually help anyone. This setting lives in old-control-panel land and the metro screen's search only searches new-control-panel land, apparently. It's hard to know who to blame for such a thing: lenovo for using the old-school panel for its custom trackpad settings and messing with the default behavior, or MSFT for splitting settings across two completely different paradigms.
Thanks!
edit: just to be clear, I double checked Settings -> Change PC Settings -> PC and Devices -> Mouse and Touchpad settings and there is absolutely not a "Choose to allow swiping from touchpad edges" option there.
Those settings exist as I described on my Surface Pro 2 and my Dell Inspiron. The former uses a factory install of 8.1, the latter using a raw install from disc. I would say that the issue lies with your Lenovo's setup.
However the search should definitely include old style control panel options as well as the new. Again, it does for both my Surface and my Dell (it's a lot slower on the Dell since it doesn't have a SSD, but instantaneous on the Surface).
The search charm (which typing on Start is a shortcut to) does search settings from throughout the system, including Control Panel in the desktop, but I'm not sure if third-party extensions are included in the search.
How much time have you tried customizing it to your liking? I couldn't stand Windows 8 before some serious tweaking, which don't get me wrong is a massive design flaw, but if you don't mind using some 3rd party software you can basically achieve the "never show me anything metro, ever" checkbox.
Definitely check out classic shell[1] if you haven't yet, I wouldn't be using Win8 if it didn't exist. Also you'll find plenty of guides to turning off charm bars/ gestures/hot corners and whatever other UI trickery Windows 8 brought us.
The funny thing is, I actually don't have as huge a problem with the shell or lack of classic menus as some people do. I can just pile shortcuts onto the desktop like all my install programs want to do anyway.
It really is the touchpad for me that's the huge annoyance, and dealing with the UI to make wifi work properly, which I guess is a Metro gripe. The last time I checked, the touchpad thing required registry tweaking and positive results were not at all guaranteed. Whoever decided that the touchpad, of all things, should sorta-kinda try to incorporate the same gestures as the touchscreen (maybe? I have a touchscreen but barely use it) was probably guilty of huffing gasoline.
I've never seen the Microsoft astroturf so vigorous. The same thing happened when this topic came up on /r/apple. I mean, it's /r/apple, and the pro-Microsoft position was the VAST majority of the comments and upvoting. It makes me think that this iteration is on the chopping block. That, if they can't start really getting some traction with them, they're going to have to pivot somehow. Of course, it could be that there's a lot of love out there for the Surface, even on an Apple fanboi forum, because it's just that good, but, somehow, I doubt it.
Mocking Windows 8 like that is like shooting fish in a barrel, it's easy and satisfying but doesn't really move forward the discourse in a meaningful way.
I wasn't mocking Windows 8, I was attacking the comment. Trivializing the massive failure for Microsoft - and for a corporate world still largely dependent on their products - represented by Windows 8 really doesn't serve anyone.
Notice he didn't say it WAS a rock solid product, he said they were dedicated to making it one.
It isn't surprising it has issues; the Surface line is a little less than 2 years old.
The iPhone wasn't polished from day one; it took them a few years too. I don't think it was until the end of the 3G, somewhere around the iPhone 4, where the iPhone was generally accepted as a well-polished product. Which, I might add, was a timespan of ~3 years.
Not surprising. The MBP Retina suffers from such lag as well, unless you go for the top of the line model with the dedicated graphics card. 2160X1440 res is too much for these integrated chips to handle.
If the higher end model uses one of the i7's with Intel's Iris graphics (still an integrated GPU), it'll have no problem. I have one powering my 2560x1440 laptop connected to another external monitor, and it drives both screens in native-res games just fine. It's more capable than the discrete ATI Radeon was in my older i5 laptop. It's also an Ultrabook (0.6"), so the same chip shouldn't have any size/thermal issues with being stuffed in an SP.
I've run 2x monitors with a 3840x1080 desktop for 9 months without a hitch on hd4600. No lag at all, albeit I'm talking Arch + KDE running kdenlive / krita / karbon / kdevelop / freecad / blender / Firefox / qtcreator / etc.
In my experience that was only true of the Ivy Bridge models. I've used both the 13 & 15 inch Haswell Pros, and neither seems to have any appreciable GUI lag, with the possible exception of scrolling/resizing sites with very complex layouts in Chrome.
OSX has some really odd lag issues with the UI and responsiveness.
I'm running my lenovo win Win8 dual monitor on the 1377x768 & 2560x1440 external monitor and I don't see any UI lag. This is on an older Intel HD3000 integrated chip.
My 13" MBP from the same time lags even if I'm using just the built in screen.
iOS 7 UI is significantly laggier than iOS 6 (I honestly do not understand how 4S users deal with it, its not fantastic even on 5S). Not to mention glitchier.
I have a 4s. While iOS 7 is laggier than iOS 6 when doing things like switching apps using a home key double tap etc., it is a much faster interface. That is, there might be (not too heavy) laginess for a small set of tasks, but iOS 7 unlike iOS 6 can keep up with my natural speed for doing things much better.
I think the key is that iOS 7 is 'slower', but the animations are meant to take less time. Thus swiping back and forth through view hierarchies, changing apps, etc. is all faster because the animations are designed to take less time (and animation delay is an artificially induced latency).
This is because of the keyboard. It's extremely heavy weight in iOS 7 for some reason — it consumes quite a lot of memory when it appears. It's not really acceptable, but that seems to be the cause of the stutters (keyboard appear during an existing animation).
Additionally, there's a very slight user-perception / psychology disconnect because of the conflicting animation speeds. The pulldown is gesture-responsive; pull faster and more firmly, and it pulls down more quickly. But the keyboard popup is automatic, and it triggers a split second after the pulldown gesture, always at full speed. The two animations look off-synch in anything but ideal conditions.
I'm on an iPhone 4 - think the lag would be painful on a 4S, put yourself in my shoes. But mostly I just wanted to comment and upvote because I wasn't sure how many other people had noticed it since upgrading iOS.
(NB: I know the age of my technology is part of the issue. Bought it in early 2011, had it replaced under warranty after 23 months in 2013, have only just started to feel the problem so hoping it lasts until the 6 is released.)
I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable for most.
Too soon to count Microsoft out regardless.