They're using an AMD APU: it has unified RAM and VRAM, much like Apple Silicon. Hence why it needs socketed RAM.
Unified RAM/VRAM is very nice for running LLMs locally, since you can get wayyyy more RAM than you typically can get VRAM on discrete GPUs. 128GB VRAM on discrete GPUs is 4x5090s — aka $8k just on GPU spend alone. This is $2k and it includes the CPU!
Of course, it'll be somewhat slower than a discrete GPU setup, but at a quarter of the cost, that's a reasonable tradeoff for most people I'd think. It should run Llama 3.1 70b (or various finetunes/LoRAs) quite easily, even with reasonably long context.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is an AMD SoC, so a combo of a CPU+GPU (and TPU/AI engine, whatever you wanna call it) on the same chip. And they do share the RAM.
So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing.
edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.
I presume that my core values, which I might know just a teeny tiny bit, align with what the corporation has stated as their values. But at the end of the day, the"core values" of a corporation are just some words on a webpage on the journey to more profit and I mean, hey, I like money too, so it's not like I can really fault them for pivoting.
Modularity is not a binary choice - it's a spectrum with tradeoffs.
One might maliciously (IMO) argue that the single motherboard in Framework products that you presumably find perfectly fine, could have been designed as several interconnected ones, that are individually replaceable. On the surface, it can seem like an unimpeachable criticism, but once you consider the cost in complexity, performance and BOM, then the "less modular" single-motherboard option becomes much more reasonable.
Framework went with soldered memory because that was the only way they could hir the memory bandwidth performance numbers they wanted for this product in the context of the segment it occupies. If you value the ability to replace/upgrade RAM over 256Gb/s, then this is not the product for you. If you think Framework shouldn't compete in this segment due to a confluence of ideological reasons and the technical limitations of slotted RAM, then the CEO disagrees with you, as do the future buyers of the compact desktop
This is literally the same product they've been selling with just one more component soldered on (memory). I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a "pivot".
The question is how much different is a motherboard with soldered CPU vs. CPU and memory soldered. You seem to be of the opinion that it's a completely different product category, I'm of the opinion they're more the same than different. I don't remember the last time I didn't upgrade all three components at once.
The point is it's a pretty critical component, so "just one" is doing a lot to downplay how critical a component it is. If we get rid of that one component, you're nowhere. So calling it "just one component" belies how critical a component it is.
> I don't remember the last time I didn't upgrade all three components at once.
Thank you for explaining your perspective. If they're a single component in your mind, and not modular, then no wonder we have such a disconnect.
I would posit that they're a single component for most consumers and buyers, and that a small majority will upgrade any single one of these three components in the lifespan of their computer. A quick check of r/buildapc reinforces this to be the case, as most posts are either full-system builds or peripheral upgrades (GPU, SSD).
My guess is that Framework had a unique opportunity with the AMD Ryzen AI and decided to capitalize on it to serve a fast-and-growing home market for this class of hardware, and the soldered LPDDR was a compromise considering the requirements of the CPU. If I had to choose between them offering this product with that restriction, or "sticking to their core values" and waiting for an alternative solution then I'm going to learn to live with the restriction. If the traffic queue wasn't just marketing BS, I assume many other people are also willing to live with it.
I want Framework to be a long-term successful company and that means making good use of their cash, and this gives them a safer opportunity to test a new product category. Maybe the result of this decision is an expansion of the category to include more modular options, at which point everyone wins.
For most consumers, existing manufacturers cover their use case. There's already a number of existing standards for modular desktop computers chassis. Framework is especially interesting to that small section of the market that isn't most consumers. Framework could pivot and sell vacuum thermos cups for all it really matters as a corporation that exists to make money for its investors. If they sell out, and modular laptops and reducing ewaste is no longer their goal, and it was all just a cash grab, that's fine too. I don't work there, it doesn't really make any difference to me, they can do whatever they want, but at the same time I feel let down.
> You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO?
His reaction in the livestream was along these lines when he semi-jokingly said "I'm surprised no one from the audience threw something at me"
At a larger event I would have kind of expected a "boo", but it seemed like a rather small gathering where most people knew each other. Unlike the live 12k Youtube chat, that was very surprised and disappointed at times.
You can't argue with laws of physics at some point. Every nanometer counts at those frequencies. You can't put your RAM too far at some point in which a physical socket will be a deal breaker.
Also, Framework doesn't need to make something for you to "build a PC". PCs are extremely modular already. They are solving a different problem here.
I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly.
RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular
> Framework’s mission is to fix consumer electronics - and we are doing that by respecting you and the planet. We have put this vision into everything we do by providing you with amazing products that are meant to last as long as possible by letting you upgrade and modify them over that lifetime to support your specific needs.
> Our mission is to reduce the amount of waste that is generated and energy that is expended and reduce our overall consumer electronics footprint, while providing a better product than you can get anywhere else. This includes using post-consumer-recycled aluminum and plastic in our products as well as recycled and recyclable packaging.
> We have just started this journey, and we are continually looking for ways to reduce our footprint and be even healthier for the environment. We’re happy to get ideas and suggestions on how we can do this. The Framework Community is a great place to share this.
The bit you quoted back to me says, "the RAM is non-upgradable", which is what I said. Your interpretation (that the parent commenter misspoke) is more generous, though, so let's go with that.
I disagree. Modularity is good, but if there are real technical reasons why it is not possible (like in thise case), then it could be a worthwile compromise.
that's a fair point! soldered on ram currently has more performance than socketed. it's definitely a compromise and I'm being an uncompromising motherfucker. It's not my company though and I'm just some rando on the Internet expressing an opinion.
I'm thinking of buying one as well, and I never would've purchased any of their other products. But I have to agree with people who say this goes against Framework's mission.
If you're not the audience, you're not the audience. Don't buy it. But a whole bunch of folks will be interested in this, and it lets framework dip their toes in the "not laptops" market without going bankrupt over it.
FWIW I find the small form factor combined with the CPU and high-powered integrated GPU very appealing. I don't think I could build something with this form factor using off the shelf parts (someone correct me if I'm wrong)... it would end up needing a larger dedicated GPU.
I suspect their competition isn't actually people who build their own PCs, but people in the market for Mac Pros — they have a number of benefits over Apple here.
At some point (if you go to high enough frequencies), the capacitance of the copper traces will become high enough (i.e. without any capacitor component connecting to a trace between a CPU and a RAM module) to prevent further frequency increases. One way to deal with that is to have shorter traces. This is exactly what CAMM memory modules do - they have shorter (total) traces than DIMM. Even shorter traces are possible if you get rid of modules completely (i.e. solder the RAM chips to the motherboard). Better yet is to place RAM and CPU cores on one chip, skipping even the motherboard traces between the CPU and RAM chips.
I think there's like electromagnetic interference if signals across various buses in computers are too close together, making it more likely that the signals get corrupted or noisy, which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal or make it impossible to get any data of value.
Not an engineer though so please correct me. I only have a vague understanding of this.
> which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal
There's none of that here. That's a concept for uncontrolled interfaces. This is a memory interface, where you either have a good signal or a flawed design. Things like ECC do exist, but those are to detect bit corruption in the memory, but a flawless communication between is still required.
The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD