> The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended". This might be a Linux problem not a Framework problem:
It's actually a Microsoft problem. They've crippled any kind of sleep in x86 because they want to be able to spy on you whilst the laptop is off.
Any laptop after 2013 is basically unusable.
The framework laptop is so bad compared to my MacBook that I basically never use it. As any time I put it in the bag the battery is dead the next day.
Same with Windows and Linux. No difference. The thing just will always die after a day.
I either use my MacBook or my T430 for which I can still buy replacement batteries They're the only kind of sane devices.
I hope Microsoft's push to ARM will fix all of this mess and we can leave this chapter of buggy Intel and AMD "laptop" crap behind us.
On Linux I've configured the OS to hibernate when I close the lid instead of sleeping. With today's SSD speeds, waking up from hibernation instead of sleep only adds 5-10s. Unless you're constantly opening and closing your laptop lid, that shouldn't affect your daily routine that much
Because Windows stopped using s3 sleep. Testing and ensuring that s3 sleep works is a cost for laptop makers, and the number of Linux users is apparently not enough to justify it.
> Testing and ensuring that s3 sleep works is a cost for laptop makers
s/laptop makers/CPU vendors/
Reportedly neither Intel nor AMD are willing to support you if you’re developing firmware with S3 support for a platform using their recent CPUs (I believe that means ≥ 13th gen resp. ≥ Zen 4 but I’m not sure).
Why would it be resolved by Microsofts Push to ARM if it's caused by Microsofts desire to spy on the user?
Also, the issue generally goes away as long as you detach the power connection before you're closing the lid, because the issue isn't actually caused by Microsoft.
They do want to spy on the users though, this just isn't an issue related to that.
At least Apple lets you turn it off. Go to Settings -> Battery -> Options and change "Wake for network access" from "Always" to "Only on power adapter" or "Never".
Cool, another third party random project I have to run to get macOS to not actively suck (like window management with rectangle, custom shortcuts with Karabiner).
Yeah, it's pretty annoying at first, coming from Windows and most desktop Linuxes where those things are out-of-the-box. Then you still have to shim in a package manager (brew etc.), git (xcode CLI just for an old version? sigh), etc. It's even worse trying to get a gaming setup going, between dealing with mouse scrolling and acceleration differences, Rosetta and GPT (game porting toolkit, not the AI stuff), etc.
At the end of the day, I don't think us dev types and power users are the core audience for Apple =/ We're just a niche. But at least once you have it all set up, it mostly keeps working after that.
I just hope they don't lock down macOS like iOS and iPadOS altogether. Presumably they'd always need a machine like that if only to develop for iOS and iPadOS and such... fingers crossed.
It's definitely an "enjoy it while it lasts" mindset for me though, like everything in tech.
Same. Including weird audio clicks during supposed 'sleep' (already happend during heavy load while awake). Then one day this summer it just died without any recourse.
> > The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended".
I've had this problem and updating the linux firmware packages to the kernel repo ones of all components fixed it 99.9% of the cases. It's an AMD though so ymmv.
Still want S3 sleep instead of fake-S3 aka S2-idle aka spy-sleep.
Not sure if I'm missing something, but the term "sleep" has never meant "power down" in Windows. It's just a lower power state that keeps all your applications running.
AFAIK you can still enable hibernation (which does actually power down the machine) in the control panel.
Completely agree. Google modern standby or hybrid sleep. Its terrible.
I just full hibernate or shutdown when going into a bag. This is as true for my work thinkpad, as it is for my personal razer as it is for our more family/general use framework 13 that is de facto my wifes computer.
As a kid I installed Ubuntu in the first laptop I ever owned. One day, I put it in my backpack. It probably woke up from sleep and got fried because it was unusable after that.
Last year I crunched my Framework laptop - basically bent the screen and the top shell badly enough that the screen was dead. Luckily I was able to purchase a new top shell and screen for ~$150 and replace it myself! I also popped in another stick of RAM while I had it open.
I am not sure that level of diy servicability is even possible with any other laptop!
Purism. I got shipped a dud screen and they told me to open it up and check all the cables, etc.
Then the battery died and I had to replace the motherboard - they shipped me a replacement (for not much) and I did the replacement myself. Kinds fun and very simple. All the screws and fasteners are standard and obvious.
Repairability is nice, but when so many parts are broken so soon after purchase (at least from my reading of the GP), the company should be replacing the whole laptop, not charging the customer and shipping one replacement piece at a time. It makes me worry about their quality control process and customer service.
They did ship a replacement laptop for the screen fix.
I was in rural Australia at the time, I would have massively preferred to be able to fix it myself instead of waiting almost 3 months for a replacement. Unfortunately, while I could do the diagnostic check myself, there was no way of fixing it myself.
When the battery died I was in Berlin. It was out of warranty at that point. Paying a couple hundred euros for a replacement motherboard was by far the cheapest and best option.
My first Macbook also had a screen die on it (they just handed me a replacement as it was still in warranty), so from my perspective we're 1:1 on QC for Apple and Purism.
Lenovo produce extensive manuals for every Thinkpad, and they're designed to be fully field-serviceable, since that's what they're selling with their on-site warranties. The laptops aren't optimized for it the way they were in IBM days, but it can be done.
Same procedure as Gen 2 by the looks of it (pg 108), not sure how it has a 9 for an iFixit score, unless you discount replacing the panel itself, or consider replacing panels adhered with adhesive tape as an easy repair. I personally do not. Having replaced many cell phone digitizers and screens in my day, I see it as messy and prone to error. Maybe the score is relative?
I used to always pay for in-home service with my ThinkPads. The hinge broke on one of them, a guy came out the next day and replaced it on my dining table.
Not sure if that repair channel has a separate parts stream, but when there isn't a shortage, it's an amazing service.
Only adds a few hundred bucks and was totally worth it the several times I've had to use it. The ThinkPads I had never had very good build quality and their non US based support isn't great. With the at home service, you deal with a real person who comes to your house or business.
Then I eventually switched to Apple and never had to get anything fixed again...
A agree, you can get a service person to show up and fix it. I had this done before, its pretty nice. Its also expensive outside of warranty. You can have that and self-service.
I did that with my previous MBP (2015 15" retina). The lid cost a lot more but was quite easy to replace. Also I've replaced many many bits on thinkpads before for myself and other people.
Well you still can upgrade the RAM on an Intel Macbook (not sure about M1+) and the SSD on all of them. It does require a hot air station and some skills though. Having done that stuff for years it doesn't bother me but it's an obvious barrier to anyone who hasn't done anything like it.
Not that I've had to upgrade a machine for about 10 years and never had one fail on me.
I was referring to the problem pointed out by the original post. that is doable with a thinkpad.
as for replacing motherboards and CPU, it is still possible on Thinkpads. the older T440p let you change CPU in its socket. Other more limited thinkpads let you replace the motherboard with a new one fairly easily (identical model). as for replacing your mobo by a more recent one, I think only the Framework allows that for now.
I bought my Framework laptop and promptly moved to a country with a lesser species of human, if we were to use framework's logic, I assume. I mean, it wasn't until like last year they opened up deliveries to Taiwan, you know, the country where the thing is manufactured. Of course, europe, the US, you know, the countries with real people™, has had access to their marketplace since day one.
So, I've spent three years with a dying battery and bashed case, a warped screen shell, but I have no recourse. Honestly, it would have been better to buy an actual open source laptop that allows generic replacements, not one from their own store that, let's be real, will go kaput one day when the founder gets bored. The whole "diy serviceability" doesn't really square when you can't get your own parts.
> and promptly moved to a country with a lesser species of human, if we were to use framework's logic, I assume
I feel you.
I’ve been in your shoes, and I used to hold a similar grudge. But what I’ve realized lately is that selling products to foreign countries is a massively complex mess of tasks due to local laws and policies, which can be ridiculously counterintuitive. Vendors need time and money to learn all the pitfalls for each individual country and to figure out how to manage the remaining risk properly.
If Framework knew how to ship you a product without risking violating local regulations left and right, they would likely be happy to do so.
The ultimate conclusion is still that, if you need to remain in non-approved countries for prolonged amounts of time, a Framework will be more difficult and expensive to repair for you than a laptop from one of the mainstream vendors, not less. Moreover, Framework will actively work to ensure you can’t repair it by banning dropshippers. So that needs to be part of the calculation.
I have a Framework 13 (AMD 7640U), running Arch Linux, and overall it is nice. It is convenient to have an HDMI port again and I did not encounter issues with hardware. (Sleep drains the battery somewhat quickly over longer time periods, but I put it in hibernate anyway for that.)
However, the screen broke down after a few months and support initially refused to replace it, citing “customer induced damage”. As far as I can tell, this is both untrue and illegal (under German law, within 12 months after purchase all defects are presumed to be due to the original condition of the product, for which the seller is liable; that presumption can be overcome, but you would need some reason). They relented eventually, but it certainly soured my opinion on both the product and the company.
The 12th gen Framework supports both s2idle(s0ix) and deep(s3) sleep. I use s2idle, because it's the default.
$ cat /sys/power/mem_sleep
[s2idle] deep
At one point I did a quick comparison of the two and deep sleep performed a little better. I haven't attempted any tweaks to optimize that though, like eliminating sources of wakeups.
I haven't had sleep issues like the author describes. The difference may be that I run Fedora workstation which has a opinionated ootb experience and tracks the "stable" kernel, currently 6.10.
It could be a difference in usage too. I rarely use thunderbolt, for example.
> I didn't expect screen hinges to be the biggest annoyance.
it really depends on what you do with it
I'm perfectly fine with the hinge strength and wouldn't want to stronger hinges.
But I can see that it's quite sup-par if someone idk. frequently uses it in quite bump situations or cares a lot about the angle of the screen not changing when idk. carrying it open around with one hand maybe handling a kid with the other or similar. Like if I lift it besides the touch pat with one hand and shake it a bit it (without much force just a bit of up down "shaking") the screen will open/close (depending if it was more open or closed before). Through I thing I might have some of the very very early "even worse" hinges. (But then for my mostly in-homes use-case it really doesn't matter for me).
Wrt. the sleep issues it's pretty much the issues discussed recently i.e. not OS specific and hard for Framework to fix. I can't say too much about it as I default my setup to sleep-then-hibernate since many year so I never really cared about "long deep sleep" working well.
11gen intel framework has been mostly very good to me: but the reminder why linux desktop is ouch was inevitable :
Ubuntu 22.04 is stuck on a kernel version with bad intel driver for 11gen (after 6 months ago the problem was discussed on arch forums)
That is a fundamental flaw to me, that ubuntu ships known bad kernels to the world capable of complete UI lockup requiring force alt+prtscrn+REISUB
(ubuntu 24.04 upgrade just released and fails, but now instead of figuring out why, my eternal anger means i am going to have to spend lots of time learning these nix or "atomic" distros that prioritize being able to switch kernels "easier?")
Reasons like this are why I jumped ship to arch a long time ago. The amount of issues you get are about the same but they get fixed a heck of a lot quicker. And now flatpaks are popular I can use those for most applications without worrying that a random lib update isn't going to brick it, as would happen somewhat often for aur stuff.
I've played around with Fedora Silverblue and the like but there's still a lot of friction with entirely immutable distros, having to layer packages is a slow and painful, and setting up a consistent development environment is hard; I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposed to install dev tools in a toolbox and get my IDE environment from a flatpak to integrate with it. There's probably something I'm misunderstanding about how I'm supposed to set this up but a quick search at the time didn't lead to anything.
Regardless I'm mostly comfortable with sticking to arch for a bleeding edge distro and drivers, knowing that if I do get an issue it'll be fixed relatively quick, and always keeping linux-lts kernel handy along with timeshift backups if anything does cause major issues.
I concur with worbie, rolling release distributions are where it's at: it's the least painful way to use a desktop (reusing the famous phrase, they're the worst operating systems, except for all the others). I recently had issues with the latest kernel, but a) they were fixed within a couple of weeks, not a couple of years, and b) I simply installed linux-lts while fixes were being worked on and continued with my work.
I sent Framework a video much like the one showing floppy hinges in OP, and they shipped me replacements free of charge that I could swap myself in a couple of minutes.
An unfortunate production issue, but that and a screen issue (I can't quite remember, a dead row I think) made a nice early showcase of user serviceability for me.
I replaced my old Thinkpad T530 that has been my daily machine for software development (Python, Docker, Java, workflows, some HPC work) by a Framework 13 AMD about two months ago.
So far everything worked fine. I've limited the battery at 60% as I work with it plugged into power most of the time. I use earphones most of the time, but when I had to use the speakers they were alright.
Camera, keyboard, and trackpad are good too (better than what I've been using). And I haven't had any issues with the monitor hinges (not sure if lucky, or newer batches have the problem fixed).
Once my CPU fans got really excited with some containers and kernel upgrade running in parallel, and wouldn't go off. I restarted it (I had a decent number of tabs open too, to be honest), and then it quieted down.
I limit the CPU performance as I use it for programming (have IntelliJ, WebStorm, and PyCharm open at the same time sometimes, with Firefox with 20 to 40 tabs, and sometimes containers running in the background, and SSH connections to servers. Everything works fine. If I open Blender or something else like a game, then the fans definitely wake up and kick in.
But otherwise very quiet, and the performance is good enough for me. It came with the latest bios installed, and I had no issues installing drivers (Ubuntu 24.04, and using XFCE BTW, everything working OK). So, so far a happy user.
I really admire people that are willing to go the whole way to daily drive something like the MNT Reform or Linux+Framework. It definitely requires a certain dedication and commitment to a principal.
I always imagined myself as a Framework kind of guy, but I'm not sure I could bear that level of quality after using Microsoft Surface Books, Macbook Pros and now a Thinkpad professionally.
I really don't need bad hinges, weak USB ports, weird screen hinges or operating system worries.
The hinges were changed a long time ago and affected only the first generation laptops AFAIR.
> weak USB ports
Never had these issues. But the ports are little modules you just slide out and replace by sliding in. No screwdriver necessary. I have seen bad USB ports on laptops you had to re-solder if not placed on a separate board ...
> operating system worries
Well, Linux remains Linux. You can run Windows, too. But Framework has fully-fledged Ubuntu support and even provides UEFI firmware updates via the Linux vendor firmware service. I had one for my Framework 13 AMD (although no UEFI related problems as far as I was aware) and the update worked like charm.
I've been using just Ubuntu and a framework for the last two years and like it. I don't know if it required much commitment. After 10 years on Ubuntu I can't stand Windows and find it much harder to use.
I moved to a Framework 13 (with Ubuntu) for my personal computer back in January from a Surface Pro (with Windows). I've mostly been happy with it, though, like the author, I'm not doing anything too demanding with it.
My biggest complaints are the battery life and heat, as well as the terrible speakers and webcam. It's also not as easy to travel with as the Surface Pro. Plus the fingerprint reader, although I'm not sure if that's Framework or Ubuntu at fault. But I love that this exists, and I'm overall very happy.
For anyone thinking about a Framework I would echo the same final thought. They have there issues but are really worth giving a shot.
I have a 16 that had a motherboard that got bricked by a bios update. After trying everything to fix it that their tech support advised I did get a new motherboard shipped to me. Not a trivial thing to replace but doable and I've had no issues since. I realize that to many just hearing about that failure would turn you off of getting one but if it were any other company, I would have to send it back and more than likely the whole laptop would be scrapped. I probably also would have gotten the run around to get the approval to fix it first. I wish it just worked perfectly out of the box but their response was about as good as one could hope for.
I can also say that on the 16, the hinge issue is fixed. I have a type A port but haven't used it heavily yet so can't comment on that one. As far as the sleep situation, I've been running linux for close to 10 years as my daily driver and I've had sleep issues off and on the entire time (with two previous Dell XPS 13's running mostly Ubuntu or Fedora). So far I haven't had them with the Framework 16 but I'm sure some update will trigger it at some point.
I don't use my laptop for work, just for personal use, so maybe that lets me lean towards things that are a bit more finicky but if you care about open hardware this is a product that deserves your support. Having basically taken one apart as much as one can, I feel confident saying alot of good design went into this thing to make it physically durable and easy to take apart/assemble.
Nice review, those flimsy USB-A ports and the floppy hinge are pretty near deal breakers for me! Hope these are fixed on newer gens. I'm currently on a second hand HP ProBook (I always buy used business models, 2-3 y/o, with "good as new" status), but I'm definitely having a good look at the framework line-up when this laptop dies (or one of my kids needs a laptop.)
I have a Framework 13 (AMD 7640U) and sometimes the machine will just freeze up, crash and reboot. I've never had that happen with another laptop (mostly been on MacBooks for the past ~8 years) - is that something that happens to other people?
I have the most up to date bios. Happens on both Windows and Linux which makes me think it's a CPU problem.
I just setup an AMD Ryzen™ 7 7735HS and this is the first time I’ve ever had an AMD powered device and it’s also just freezing completely, blank screen and then rebooting occasionally on Windows 11. The most annoying part is there are no logs in Event Viewer. No Blue/Green screen nothing. Also doesn’t happen during intense CPU activity or anything, it’s seems random and I’ve had the device for less than 30 days. I’m wondering if it’s worth troubleshooting or if AMD systems just aren’t that reliable or maybe I just got a dud. Concerning that other users are having similar trouble on Linux as well.
You've caught me in my laziness, i've not really learned well how to read logs after a crash. It's inexcusable that I don't know how to do this, and I am now inspired to Google around for how to do this, I'll start with Windows at thats my current installation.
> Done a reinstall?
Yeah many times.
> Tried Windows and Linux?
Yes, Win 11 and many flavours on Linux. Happens more on Windows, but does happen on Linux too.
It's common with PC laptops. Mac doesn't cook but it doesn't fully go to sleep either.
I set my framework up with a little over 32GB of swap so that I can do hibernate. Resuming takes about a minute, but at least it's not draining battery since it is shutdown.
Going to copy/paste from a comment I posted a year or so ago.
I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux.
The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees.
The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours.
The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating.
All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well.
For one C++ project I work on I need 32GB of memory to compile as sometimes the oom-killer will kill the compiler. That's one of the only reasons I use my WSL2 desktop or Framework laptop since memory is cheap.
I had all the same problems but had the opposite conclusion, that I’ll never give them any more of my money if I can help it. Of course that could change if the mainstream x86 laptops continue to get worse and worse.
It's actually a Microsoft problem. They've crippled any kind of sleep in x86 because they want to be able to spy on you whilst the laptop is off.
Any laptop after 2013 is basically unusable.
The framework laptop is so bad compared to my MacBook that I basically never use it. As any time I put it in the bag the battery is dead the next day.
Same with Windows and Linux. No difference. The thing just will always die after a day.
I either use my MacBook or my T430 for which I can still buy replacement batteries They're the only kind of sane devices.
I hope Microsoft's push to ARM will fix all of this mess and we can leave this chapter of buggy Intel and AMD "laptop" crap behind us.