> If you are careless, you could end up with botulism, one of the deadliest toxin known to man! So make sure the fermentation vessel is airtight and everything is clean.
I'm not an expert, but from what I've heard about botulism, that's recklessly irresponsible advice. (Do your own research before taking the advice below.)
The whole point is that:
1. Botulism spores are everywhere.
2. They only reproduce when the conditions are right. Guess what those conditions are? a) Not too acidic b) NO OXYGEN.
3. Soap doesn't kill them. Boiling at at STP doesn't kill them. The only way to kill them is to boil them at a high enough pressure that the temperature.
Therefore, "make sure everything is clean" is useless advice; and "make sure everything is airtight" just helps you make sure the conditions are right to be poisoned.
Two ways to counter botulism. Either:
1. Boil things at the right pressure for long enough (with a pressure gauge to make sure it's actually at the specified pressure) to kill the spores
2. Make sure it's acidic enough to keep the spores asleep.
EDIT: My point wasn't "Don't bottle things like hot sauce at home". I bottle things at home myself. And I bet his recipe is perfectly safe -- not because he keeps things airtight and clean, but because it's acidic.
If he had said, "Watch out for botulism but this is safe because it's acidic", then people using his recipe will make sure to keep things acidic as well, and if they dilute the acidity, they'll be warned to look up the pH required to be safe.
But instead he said, "Watch out for botulism, make sure everything is airtight and clean"; which means people might take his recipe and reduce the acidity, believing themselves still to be safe because they're keeping things airtight and clean. That is what's reckless about the advice.
Also, another condition botulism requires is to be above 5C. So what I actually do myself is bottle things that are acidic, and then keep them in the fridge. I don't typically make more than a few jars a year, so that's sufficient for me; if I was going to can things properly, I'd get pH testers and/or a pressure cooker with a gauge.
While botulism is a terrible illness, its actual incidence is very rare compared to how many scary warnings about its dangers are made to amateur cooks at any chance possible. In fact, I have never made my pickles and hot sauce because I am now irrationally and deathly terrified of botulism.
Here's some real numbers: between 1976-2009 there have been 3618 confirmed cases of botulism in the USA. 100 per year. You have one in 3,400,000 chances to get botulism if you live in US in any given year. And I bet the vast majority are from eating spoiled or contaminated industrial tinned food, rather than people making hot chili sauce.
EDIT after rereading the research: of 3618 cases of botulism, 109 were fatal. Of these fatal cases, 61 were due to foodborne botulism. In 33 years. That's a probability of ~1/170,000,000 per year to die of botulism in the US.
> In fact, I have never made my pickles and hot sauce because I am now irrationally and deathly terrified of botulism.
Don't be. Read up the facts, and make sure to prepare things right.
This is the point of the warning. Botulism is not some cosmic horror which reaches out and grabs you randomly. It is like a knife. If you do things right it is perfectly safe. If you do things wrong it can kill you. The point of the warnings is to learn where the "edge of the knife" is and how to behave to keep yourself safe.
The point of the comment is that the provided "safety precautions" are wrong. It is as if someone said "to avoid knife injuries make sure to always put your fingers under what you are cutting. That way you will know when your knife is getting blunt." The advice provided is that obviously bad.
> here's some real numbers:
We are not talking about national averages. If you make chilli sauce which is not sufficiently acidic then you bottle it up and close oxygen away from it you created a science experiment to grow botulism bacteria. If you do that you suddenly increased your personal probabilities from those nice and low national numbers to alarmingly high.
The warning is there because people are bad at following instructions. And that is usually fine. When someone is making a cupcake and they forgot the chocolate chips out the cupcakes will be less delicious but won't kill them. With chilli sauce this is not the case. It can literally kill you if you adjust the recipe such that it is not acidic enough anymore. So we warn people about that.
> Botulism is not some cosmic horror which reaches out and grabs you randomly. It is like a knife. If you do things right it is perfectly safe. If you do things wrong it can kill you. The point of the warnings is to learn where the "edge of the knife" is and how to behave to keep yourself safe.
In a way botulism reminds me of stories about vampires or other mythical creatures of evil: They're potentially powerful and scary but have simple weaknesses which, if you know them, render them powerless.
That's the rate for a population that almost entirely follows appropriate precautions. I suspect that the rate among people who _don't_ follow those precautions is rather higher.
Our family just found a stray kitten in a storm drain. She is feisty in ways I've never seen in a kitten. The amount of time I've spent thinking some variation of "our whole family is going to get rabies and die horribly" is absurd, especially since the vet just thought she was funny.
Indeed. Botulism is one thing that scares the bejeezus out of me (it's up there with rabies in the dark place in my mind where I keep things like that), but it's vanishingly unlikely to occur in this context.
I'd hazard a guess that about zero of those 3618 total cases were related to the consumption of food that was preserved through fermentation.
Yes but you assume that 100 per year is a fair sample of the population, when in fact it's possible that of the 10,000 Americans making their own hot sauce each year, 100 of them get bubonic chilli plague or whatever it is and die. So your chance of death is 1 in 100. Stick with Tabasco folks!
Nope. We didn't evolve the ability to detect botulism in food because it's really, really rare unless you have the right conditions. Most of the stuff you'd find in nature has been exposed to oxygen, which prevents its growth. It's really only when you start putting things in jars (or in oil, or fermenting them in ways that use up all the oxygen) that it can thrive.
Ah, thanks for the useful info. When I have tried to ferment peppers I usually end up throwing them out 50% of the time because something ends up smelling off.
On a side note, I see that botulism toxin (but not the spores) is destroyed by heating at 185F (84C) for a period of a few minutes. I've always boiled my fermented sauces as a final step because it stops the fermentation from progressing and makes the sauce last longer without developing any further "off" tastes.
If I've understood things right, boiling as a last step won't protect you from botulism. My understanding is:
1. The botulism spore can only be killed by heating to something very high, like 250C, which can only be achieved at a higher pressure
2. If the conditions are right, the botulism spore spawns to be a botulism bacteria inside your sealed container; and this bacteria creates the botulism toxin.
3. It's the toxin that kills you, not the bacteria. The botulism toxin can be broken down by heating for a few minutes.
Unfortunately, your "boiling fermenting sauces as a final step" happens between 1 and 2, but not between 2 and 3; so the botulism toxin isn't present yet, only the botulism spore, which won't be fazed at all by 85C. If you want to use boiling to protect yourself from the botulism toxin, my understanding was that you'd need to boil it after you open the can for the first time.
Again, I'm not an expert, so make sure to do your own research.
Ah, I forgot a step. I think this is very common when it comes to making hot sauces but after boiling/pasteurizing, you add a lot of vinegar. This should raise the PH well beyond what botulism can handle and just generally preserves the hot sauce. By volume it has to be at least like 20% vinegar. Some people leave their sauces "live", meaning they don't boil and might not even add much vinegar (common with sriracha) but I don't trust myself to leave out those two steps. Plus, I'm usually going for a tabasco type sauce and vinegar is a key part of the flavor.
Botulism is a risk in the home canning of low-acidity foods. It is virtually unheard of in the lacto-fermentation of foods not containing animal products. I'm not aware of a single confirmed case in the US, ever.
If anyone is concerned about it, the simplest thing to do is buy an inexpensive pH tester and confirm the brine's pH is below 4.6
Specifically in the context of fermentation, if you manage to get fermentation started correctly /prior/ to the formation of bacteria colonies, that food will be safe to eat because fermentation creates an environment of competitive exclusion. Essentially, yeast colonies and bacteria colonies want the same things, whichever forms first will prevent the other from forming. This is even true for bacterial fermentation like lacto-fermentation, which is even safer since it produces an acid as an output and creates an acidic environment as well as one in which they outcompete other bacteria.
It's not like you can just seal up a jar and it's going to form botulism, it's necessary that the botulism spores have the necessary resources to multiply, just as it's important that yeast or other fermenting agents require the necessary resources to multiply and colonize. I definitely appreciate your point, but I also think your concern, in the context of fermentation, is overblown.
In fact, I generally assume anything that's fermented properly is safe to eat. If you ferment it, and it doesn't taste bad, it's basically good to go for the human body. This is part of why we now use the term "probiotics" which are mostly bacterial or yeast growths that are involved in fermentation and can help to fight off illness causing bacteria. Beer, wine, kimchi, sour kraut, and pretty much anything else you ferment is safe exactly because of this competitive exclusion.
As someone interested in making and eating fermented foods (kimchi, “panta bhat/rice” etc) do you have any beginner level reading recommendations? For example the fermented rice thing - it doesn’t use external bacterial/yeast cultures, and fortunately no one at home’s fallen sick yet - but what’s the difference between “this rice has gone bad because it was out overnight” and “this rice is super healthy”? Thanks a lot!
If anyone is interested in safely preserving food, the USDA provides the USDA's Complete Guide to Home Canning, which has recipes and canning guidance when using a pressure canner. Their current webpage is here:
These recipes do include things like salsas. The point being is that safe canning practices have been well-studied, documented, and already paid for by tax payers. It's a good resource to use as opposed to just winging it.
The bacteria (but not the spores) are killed by boiling. I probably have conflated mould and botulism in the line you quoted. But I did also say:
"If your sauce has a sufficiently high salt and/or acid level it shouldn’t grow anything nasty."
I probably should have said.
"If you are careless, you could end up with botulism, one of the deadliest toxin known to man! But if your sauce has a sufficiently high salt and/or acid level it shouldn’t grow anything nasty. ... To avoid mould and other issues make sure the fermentation vessel is airtight and everything is clean."
Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone the detailed process of how to make hot sauce here. Just encouraging them to find out more from someone who is more expert.
Even particular foods like garlic, notwithstanding aspersions cast in other comments, have empirical studies e.g. [1] that look pretty plausible. Several more reports from reputable sources turn up in the first few pages of internet searches around just garlic.
It is true that there are a lot of traditions and implicit knowledge around food safety, but it seems like a strawman fallacy to ignore what is explicitly known.
Tangential but interesting tidbit: Botulinum toxin messes with your motor neurons, which is bad news for your heart. For the same reason (but at lower dosage) it eases wrinkles and causes the infamous expressionless Botox look.
I'm not an expert, but from what I've heard about botulism, that's recklessly irresponsible advice. (Do your own research before taking the advice below.)
The whole point is that:
1. Botulism spores are everywhere.
2. They only reproduce when the conditions are right. Guess what those conditions are? a) Not too acidic b) NO OXYGEN.
3. Soap doesn't kill them. Boiling at at STP doesn't kill them. The only way to kill them is to boil them at a high enough pressure that the temperature.
Therefore, "make sure everything is clean" is useless advice; and "make sure everything is airtight" just helps you make sure the conditions are right to be poisoned.
Two ways to counter botulism. Either:
1. Boil things at the right pressure for long enough (with a pressure gauge to make sure it's actually at the specified pressure) to kill the spores
2. Make sure it's acidic enough to keep the spores asleep.
EDIT: My point wasn't "Don't bottle things like hot sauce at home". I bottle things at home myself. And I bet his recipe is perfectly safe -- not because he keeps things airtight and clean, but because it's acidic.
If he had said, "Watch out for botulism but this is safe because it's acidic", then people using his recipe will make sure to keep things acidic as well, and if they dilute the acidity, they'll be warned to look up the pH required to be safe.
But instead he said, "Watch out for botulism, make sure everything is airtight and clean"; which means people might take his recipe and reduce the acidity, believing themselves still to be safe because they're keeping things airtight and clean. That is what's reckless about the advice.
Also, another condition botulism requires is to be above 5C. So what I actually do myself is bottle things that are acidic, and then keep them in the fridge. I don't typically make more than a few jars a year, so that's sufficient for me; if I was going to can things properly, I'd get pH testers and/or a pressure cooker with a gauge.