Fun fact: The original VW beetle could do this for half an hour or so [1]. There was a (1960s?) article in "Modern Motor", whereby someone tested it and found that there was at least some control, as the tyres provided enough paddle action to move forward and the front wheels acted as rudders.
Their floating inspired some to modify beetles to really make them amphibious [2,3].
Even if it officially floats, I wouldn't like to go up against a flooded river in a 4WD [4]. In this example, the wheels snagged and flipped the car.
I live near the area from [4]. Driving through flooded streets is a huge issue, people don’t understand the dangers. I have a light 4wd and would never take it through any water, no matter how small it looks. You just don’t know what’s beneath the surface of the water.
I remember the front page of The Sun showing a VW sailing down Swanston St in the Melbourne CBD in 1972 during a flash flood. I was 10yo and thought it was brilliant.
It can also do 360 degree self centered turn, which should be useful. No more 3 point turns!
Given the flexibility of installing the motors, I've always wondered why electric cars still can't move in a parallel way. That should be very handy when parallel parking.
In my past times off-roading, trails and dirt roads have usually been very generous with places to turn. Not so much when you are off a trail or a road.
Exactly, and unless you are on private property or BLM land you are also generally not supposed to be driving off the trails or roads. So there isn't much use for this other than on private property or on BLM land.
It literally says in the article - the EV only range is 180km(about 110 miles), the fuel tank is 75 litres, giving it a combined range of 1000km(600 miles).
Tbh that's an awful combined range and it shows how heavy and inefficient the car is. My Volvo XC60 PHEV only has about 50km EV-only range, but combined with its 75 litre tank it can easily do 1000km, no problem.
Both can do 1k km on 75l, so apart from the Volvo‘s smaller battery, where‘s the difference for the end user? I think it’s a waste of materials to build such cars, but given the weight the consumption seems impressive.
Both cars are plug in hybrids - you need to charge them externally to get the most out of them. BYD needs literally 5x the electricity of the Volvo(50kWh Vs 10kWh) for the same range, so the owner is definitely going to notice it on their energy bill.
> BYD needs literally 5x the electricity of the Volvo(50kWh Vs 10kWh) for the same range
Which "same range"? Did you just calculate electric efficiency using the total range including gasoline? In that case your PHEV needs an infinite times the electricity of a car driving on gasoline alone.
If anything on paper the U8 is 10% more efficient (Volvo says 50km from the 15kWh battery, not 10kWh). With gasoline factored in you have two vehicles with equal 1000km range despite the U8 being significantly heavier.
You can argue that the CLTC isn't nearly as accurate as the WLTP and you'd be right but you still need to check your math and/or logic above.
Using current U.S. numbers [1][2]: average electricity price is $0.162/kWh, might be cheaper off peak or with solar roof; average gas price is $3.083/gal ($0.815/L) for regular, and $3.885/gal ($1.026/L) for premium which is recommended for your Volvo.
I'm not in the US. In Europe my Volvo doesn't require premium 98 octane , regular 95 is fine. I appreciate the calculation but I don't know why you're trying so hard to escape the fact that the BYD needs 40kWh more(!!!!!) to travel the same distance(combined with 75 litres of petrol) - it's not hard to see that(as I said 70 comments ago) the BYD is a heavier and less efficient car. There isn't much to argue with here(or at least I wouldn't think so?).
Your logic is still... lacking. I don't say it lightly but it might be the worst case of obtuseness I've seen in many years of HN.
You mix and match units when calculating a ratio of efficiency and it gets you meaningless conclusions. By your "logic" a Tesla M3, a leader in electric efficiency, is the worst of the bunch. It needs ~100kWh of electricity to drive the same 1000km distance. And ICE cars can do that trip with 0 electricity, many even with less fuel so they must be the best?
It makes no sense other than for you to feel good about your car. But your car needs 10-11kWh to drive ideally a pathetic 30km (!) and 75l of fuel for the other 970km. Other ICE cars, or non-PHEV XC60 (the diesel) need no electricity and 50-60l of fuel for the same distance. And they're much cheaper to buy. So why did you pay anywhere between 15k-45k EUR more to have a "compliance car" hybrid that doesn't even float (/s) when this means you're just getting "less efficient"? Unless you bought the bragging rights, and now you're here to defend them.
The goal of any electrified car is to drive as much as possible on electric power alone without the need to run the engine. Not only because ideally some owners can make their own electricity but also for comfort and emissions.
Car A: needs 75 litres + 10kWh of electricity to cover 1000km
Car B: needs 75 litres + 50kWh of electricity to cover 1000km.
Even a child could point out which car is more efficient, as it needs less energy to travel the same distance. Am I wrong about this? If yes, please tell me how, I'm genuinely listening.
>>It makes no sense other than for you to feel good about your car.
I was trying to make a point that another large and mostly pointless SUV can do the same distance, using the same amount of fuel, and LESS electricity. That's literally all. I could also point out how either of those cars is idiotic, because as you said, a diesel version of the same car will use less fuel and no electricity. I used my own car as an example of a car that is also a "bad" example of efficiency.
I apologize if that wasn't obvious, but man, you really got hung up on this.
>>So why did you pay anywhere between 15k-45k EUR more to have a "compliance car" hybrid
In case you are genuinely interested and not just trolling - because in my use case I'm within the EV only range nearly every day, and my long term petrol usage average over 50kkm is 2.1L/100km.
>>But your car needs 10-11kWh to drive ideally a pathetic 30km (!)
It doesn't, but I don't see any point in explaining to you how my own car works, nor was it a point of my entire comment.
Let's draw a more complete picture with "car XC60 diesel" which needs 65 litres to cover 1000km. It's maybe 20% more efficient and 20% cheaper than car A, and with even cheaper fuel. Yet you picked your less efficient, more costly XC60 PHEV because...
> in my use case I'm within the EV only range nearly every day
Aha! Progress! EV only range didn't matter to you until just now despite my mentions, probably because your car has a meager 30km peak range while the U8 can do ~200km. So the U8 is for people who want an EV that's good for any daily commute (even with A/C or heating), with the engine for road or off-road trips. I guarantee you nobody sees these 2 cars competing in any segment.
> It doesn't, but I don't see any point in explaining to you how my own car works
Luckily you don't need to, we live in the information age. You said 10kWh battery, Volvo says it's good for ~30km in ideal conditions.
My friend, your car was the peak of compliance cars, built only to fetch the EV subsidy, with the tiniest of batteries in that segment, and less EV range than you're implying. You insist on combining it with the tank of gas so it looks marginally more efficient than the Chinese luxury tank. But almost nobody cares about that combo. People care about EV range or gas economy. Your car is a bad at both, with the comically short EV range and an inefficient gas engine pulling 2.5t. Why bother trying to make it look better by some skewed metric nobody cares about?
Pretty sure your comment trying to paint or at least hint at the BYD being 5x inefficient is the strange one, when it's actually ~1.1x. Which would be really low down on the list of things to consider when purchasing a $150k SUV. If I were in the market for one, I would go for the option that gives me 180km electric range rather than a puny 50km so that all the day to day short range driving is comfortably covered, even if it's only 90% efficient.
In addition, if we compare only the first 180km, your Volvo (using regular gas) comes out at
The old XC60 can do 50km on 9.1kWh of battery - that’s 18kWh per 100km - IMO that’s super optimistic for an SUV of that size (and assumes no heating, AC, lights etc), but let’s assume it holds.
The BYD can do 180km on a 50kWh battery, that’s 28kWh per 100km.
How did you arrive at 5x worse? It’s not even 2x worse. And again, I don’t buy the 50km claim from Volvo, outside of perfect conditions (eg daytime in May, no rain, no AC, low air resistance).
I have done 52km in the past before the ICE kicked in(in perfect conditons, but yes).
>>How did you arrive at 5x worse
You have two cars, they both are fully charged and fueled up. They both drive 1000km and then stop. They both burnt 75 litres of petrol, but one used 10kWh of electricity, the other used 50kWh of electricity.
How much more electricity has the second car used Vs the first one?
Well you‘re making the error of assuming that charging the PHEV before a trip is required. Also, the fact that the BYD is 5x more electricity costs is almost irrelevant for a 1k km trip, because there‘s just an $8 difference for the whole trip, assuming $0.2 per kWh.
On shorter trips, the BYD will come out on top because it can go on battery for way longer, which is (even at 27kWh/100km) cheaper than the Volvo on gasoline/Diesel.
The charging functionality is just a bonus for hybrids (I doubt many people drive a big part of their mileage electric by plugging in). Primarily, the battery serves to conserve energy while decelerating. The BYD obviously also uses the battery as a buffer for its range extender, but the Volvo doesn’t do that.
>>Well you‘re making the error of assuming that charging the PHEV before a trip is required
No, I'm literally going off what the manufacturer said - 1000km range when the battery charge and fuel tank are combined. That's it.
People keep making comparisons for shorter trips, for driving with an empty battery, for driving on battery range only etc etc etc - all of it misses the point I'm making.
>>I doubt many people drive a big part of their mileage electric by plugging in).
If they don't, then why buy a PHEV at all? If you have a PHEV and never plug it in, then your efficiency will be worse than that of a simple MHEV or even a straight up ICE-only car.
We can’t compare the full 1k to 1k km yet because EPA ratings aren’t out - the BYD might as well make 100km more than the Volvo with 75L.
> If they don't, then why buy a PHEV at all?
Subsidies + CO2 ratings (important for EU).
PHEV is a green washing ploy IMO. Plugging in every day is hard enough as it is, I’ve had a fully electric Ioniq for 3 years. I don’t believe many people will do that for just 36 miles (20 in winter), every day. A big chunk of owners don’t even have the infrastructure to charge daily. With an EV you are also often forced to look for destination charging, but with an PHEV it’s perfectly fine to skip that - and people do.
>>We can’t compare the full 1k to 1k km yet because EPA ratings aren’t out
True
>>PHEV is a green washing ploy IMO. Plugging in every day is hard enough as it is
So I disagree in the sense that they do work absolutely amazing if your usecase works for what they offer. Our Volvo does 20-30 miles in EV mode, but that covers my driving needs every day, and we have a charging point outside of the house, so plugging it in every day is literally not a problem. In consequence this car just doesn't use any fuel - I drive it every day but fill it up maybe once every 3 months. In fact the main argument for buying it was how much it was going to save us every month on fuel compared to our last car - which turned out true, the savings more than offset the larger finance cost of buying it.
But on the other hand, I know someone who owns one living in an apartment in a big city, without any good way to charge it - in that case it's an idiotic thing to own, he's basically lugging around 400kg battery pack, ruining his economy, for no reason at all.
>>but with an PHEV it’s perfectly fine to skip that - and people do.
Maybe some do - I wouldn't stop at a hotel without charging point, because even though the range is only 20-30 miles in EV mode it makes a really big impact on overal economy.
I'm really puzzled by the 30 min part, things either seal or they don't. I wonder if it's a genuine limitation or just another one of those standards where devices are tested for 1 hour at 1 meter depth and that's what they advertise.
I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall. Hopefully Tesla could somehow get rid of Musk as it seems like he is constantly holding Tesla back quite a bit. (edit: some context: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...)
This is a stat that people keep bringing up while completely ignoring the fact that many of BYD's vehicles are not marketable outside of China because they're just rip-offs of other manufacturers' vehicles. See BYD S8 [0] and Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class [1] for one example, but there are numerous. This should tell you everything you need to know about this company.
You are choosing an example from more than a decade ago, at a time when not even Chinese people chose BYD vehicles. To wit the S8 sold 103 units. Things have changed. You are ignoring the fact that plenty of BYD's vehicles are already marketed and sold in Europe, other Asian countries, and Australia.
I just rode a BYD taxi (Uber) in Mexico city, I believe it was the BYD D1. Super comfortable, tons of leg space, minivan-style door. The driver claimed that after 100K kms the range was still within 1% of baseline.
I have seen a few on the road in Costa Rica as well. There are not a lot of electric cars on the roads down there despite the tax incentives because they are too expensive for the average Tico. You also seen a decent number of Cherry, Geely, Great Wall and JAC on the road down there as well...among other Chinese makes.
They have a dealership where I live in a southern Japanese city now. Seems like a very bold move, Japan must be a very difficult market for a Chinese brand...
I'm visiting Australia now and you see lots of Great Wall trucks
The design can change as long as the tech inside is legal to sell elsewhere and does the job. I'd say the design is anyway the first to change because tastes may differ between continents (even between US and Europe).
The example you gave is for a 15 year old car where only 100 were produced and Mercedes couldn't have been too upset since they signed a partnership with BYD that year. Around the same time Tesla was selling Lotus Roadsters. In the meantime obviously neither still needs to do that. BYD will sell outside of China whatever they are legally allowed to sell on top of the growing sales they have inside China.
> This should tell you everything you need to know about this company.
If you're too focused on how they did business 15 years ago you might miss that they're passing by you today. Does Musk tell you everything you need to know about Tesla? Millions are still buying. If you don't buy BYD it won't be because they were copying the megastars of the time decades ago.
I'm not a fan of Chinese business practices but a lot of big companies everywhere started by copying more established competing products.
> In 2009 the car sold in 96 units, and only seven cars were sold in the full 2010 fiscal year. Production has now ceased. In all, the car sold in only 103 units
This is like saying we should ignore Tesla because the only car they sold in 2009 was a rip-off Lotus.
Speaking as an American, I'd love to see what the presence of low-end (say, $10k range) autos would do to traffic laws and city planning.
That’s right, I didn’t mean to imply theft of any kind. I’m mostly pointing out that both companies sort of outsourced the body design (BYD in a more questionable way) as they figured out how to grow. Both companies were quite small production-wise in 2009 and are very different today.
> that many of BYD's vehicles are not marketable outside of China
Yet, it seems like they're beating a lot of other EV makers across the world, and are producing top-selling vehicles in a bunch of countries. So seems it's somewhat working outside of China? Or I misunderstand what you mean.
I think if they make a good product it should always be possible to hire a designer to make their cars look good without industrial design infringements.
Because it demonstrates a theft of tech and design, which puts their credibility and integrity in question. Is the derivative safe (actually safe, not government-of-China wanting a feather in its cap rubber-stamp safe)? Is the derivative actually comparable (i.e. is the marketing a lie)? Aside from that, do we want to reward companies that steal other companies' ideas?
> I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall.
Musk is perfectly willing to play by the rules and norms of the Chinese market. They opened up a factory there and everything, they are even selling lots of cars in the PRC while exporting some outside.
I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden; where unions are granted blanket monopolies on economic control. Is it even much of a player there yet?
> I’m not sure how BYD would fair in Norway/Sweden; where unions are granted blanket monopolies on economic control. Is it even much of a player there yet?
Unions don't have blanket monopolies on economic control, that's absolute bullshit...
I see quite a few BYDs here in Sweden. My girlfriend even got one as a rental some 3-6 months ago.
Yeah, their system is really foreign to us in the US (no pun intended :)). The idea that people not employed by Tesla will actively block Tesla is weird and really tilts the balance of power.
I'm not aware enough of the details of how this works in general to say whether this is good or bad overall.
Only 10 to 30 of the 130 mechanics "walked off the job". The press like AP News is straight up lying that 130 mechanics walked off the job, that other media is parroting. The rest like their stock options and performance based pay hikes instead of the union table rates for all:
The number of striking Tesla mechanics is so low that IF Metall refuses to reveal how many are striking, and recently expelled some Tesla employees for not obeying their power play of striking.
It's a powerplay by unions who have to resort to sympathy strikes using the government monopoly on giving out registration plates because Tesla workers are happy. Even those are failing as Tesla sales in Sweden have increased over 2022 in Nov and Dec 2023, in spite of blockades on Tesla car imports. Would be interesting to see the court battle over plates because Swedish law says plates must be provided for lawfully registered cars. The law usually trumps contracts, which should have exceptions in the cases of force majeure anyway.
To not paint a target on striking employees in case of small strikes.
> Tesla has been selling and servicing cars in Sweden from almost 10 years, it was business as usual till the union decided to strike.
The union has been trying to negotiate with Tesla during that period.
Sweden traditionally has very weak labor laws, there is not even a minimum wage. Instead, Sweden relies on strong unions, with more than 70% of employees in unions. There are unwritten rules on how businesses should behave, but Tesla just decided to ignore them.
It was OK while Tesla was still a small scrappy startup, but they're not anymore.
> The number of striking Tesla mechanics is so low that IF Metall refuses to reveal how many are striking, and recently expelled some Tesla employees for not obeying their power play of striking.
Unions here never disclose how many employees are on strike, it's a way to protect the collective action.
> ”Hade jag inte tyckt om mitt jobb, hade det varit så toxiskt som de beskriver, då hade jag bytt jobb”, säger han till Ekot.
That's one technician saying they are happy and disappointed with IF Metall, unless conditions are so egregious to force unanimous action there will always be employees who don't want to participate on a strike. It was the same in the case of Klarna, a lot of employees were not in support of a potential strike but there was enough support to announce it to force Klarna to come into a collective bargaining agreement.
> It's a powerplay by unions who have to resort to sympathy strikes using the government monopoly on giving out registration plates because Tesla workers are happy. Even those are failing as Tesla sales in Sweden have increased over 2022 in Nov and Dec 2023, in spite of blockades on Tesla car imports.
It's become a powerplay, exactly because of how the labour market works here, if a company succeeds in overturning a foundational principle of the labour market then employers have acquired a much more outsized power against employees. IF Metall wants Tesla to abide by what any other car manufacturer abides to in Sweden, in not doing so they are creating a market advantage over other companies who are following the rules of the labour market.
Had Tesla not brought scabs to break the strike nothing of this would be happening, do you understand that? The major issue is that, it's not Tesla not signing a CBA, it's Tesla trying to strong-arm their way through union busting tactics in a society where unions are a core tenet to balance employers-employees relationships. Without unionised power the labour market in Scandinavia/Nordics is not possible to be balanced, the government tries to not interfere.
I do not understand why you defend Tesla so often in Hacker News, I've noticed your username across the years always siding with Tesla, Tesla is in the wrong here and they are paying for it.
If Tesla doesn't like how the market works here they are free to leave at any moment...
Those news headlines are very misleading. Most Tesla's, all BYD's and certain Volvo models are imported from China on large ships so will sell thousands in one month and essentially zero in others. So while the BYD Atto 3 was the best-selling car in a couple of the months of 2023, for annual sales it is well behind the Tesla Y and Volvo XC40.
It's not even close to Tesla here in Norway. Mostly because the price is not as competitive as they are in China and the system difference is another issue. Plus, the psychology.
> Pretty sure BWD is the top selling EV manufacturer in Sweden, I recall reading that before the Tesla union shenanigans happened.
Source, please. VW and Tesla seem far far ahead of BYD. I am curious where this narrative started, since multiple people are confidently stating that BYD is outselling Tesla in Sweden.
As much as I'd love to believe that a better leader would make an American company fully keep pace with BYD, I don't see any evidence that this is the case. I really doubt BYD would be doing any better on worker treatment and unionization.
And besides, BYD did that by selling a lot of very cheap vehicles. I don't think that really fits the business objectives for Tesla.
IIRC the strategy of Tesla was to start building very expensive EVs (Roadster, then Model S and X) to fund the build of cheaper options (Model 3 and Y), and the final target would be a mass market car affordable by everyone, maybe in the $20-25K range.
Vehicles sold by price and region is useful. Total # of vehicles sold is not. How many sold inside/outside of China? To put it gently, EV sales in China have had an additional boost from the government (which, btw, I think is good for the planet).
The newer BYD vehicles are more comparable to Tesla (and other manufacturers), but there's a long, long way to go before they prove themselves more than a manufacturer of cheap cars.
Tesla has never been a manufacturer of cheap cars. More recently, it has become a manufacturer of good ones.
The fundamentally simpler nature of EVs means they're rolling software platforms, and the software matters a great deal. Tesla has gotten good at the software side of the equation, and are arguably ahead of pretty much everything else.
I would not trust any sales numbers from the Chinese internal market as they have a long history of faking them for various reasons. This includes doing things like registering the car (counting as sale) and then just parking them on a lot.
If he was willing to work with the rules and norms of the markets they want to enter, they'd sell even fewer cars. If they had to deal with the same regulations and IP laws as China, they'd sell more.
> If he was willing to work with the rules and norms of the markets they want to enter, they'd sell even fewer cars
Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country. Even Amazon found a way to work in a way that the common person is protected, why can't Tesla?
> Well, as it stands right now, BYD looks to be the more popular option in countries like Sweden just because Musk refuses to do what every other single company does in the country
No it's not, where are you getting your data from? Not to mention jumping to conclusions.
Electric vehicles are more heavily subsidized in China than America. 22% of new car sales in China are electric vs 1% in America. China also has a lot of tariffs and regulations preventing foreign competition.
And many people forget that BYD's number's are bolstered by the fact that they sell one of their models for less than 10,000 euros. Of course they will have higher numbers at that price point.
What is "cheap" in terms of Tesla? From my understanding of issues with modern Teslas at full price, I'd hate to see issues when they start cutting corners to make "cheap".
And Teslas built overseas are fine, it's Fremont's quality control that sucks. Which is likely exactly why Tesla is planning to built the Model 2s in Mexico, Germany and China, but not the US.
> I'm guessing that Musk's unwillingness to work with the rules and norms in the markets Tesla is trying to enter, will be Tesla's downfall. Hopefully Tesla could somehow get rid of Musk as it seems like he is constantly holding Tesla back quite a bit.
They edited that in after I asked for sources instead of putting it in a reply, and didn't mark it as a later edit. Can't google something that's not there. Not to mention google shows that Tesla sales increased in Sweden in Nov and December 2023 compared to the same months in 2022.
> About 130 mechanics at 10 Tesla garages across Sweden walked off the job on Oct. 27 over the company’s refusal to sign a collective bargaining agreement
This is false reporting, only 10 to 30 of the 130 mechanics "walked off the job". The rest like their stock options and performance based pay hikes instead of the union table rates for all.
> About 130 mechanics at 10 Tesla garages across Sweden walked off the job on Oct. 27 over the company’s refusal to sign a collective bargaining agreement
This is false reporting, only 10 to 30 of the 130 mechanics "walked off the job". The rest like their stock options and performance based pay hikes instead of the union table rates for all. A lot of other news outlets picked up this false narrative.
The number of striking Tesla mechanics is so low that IF Metall refuses to reveal how many are striking, and recently expelled some Tesla employees for not obeying their power play of striking.
A lot of other news outlets picked up this false narrative from AP and reporting that 130 employees are striking.
The number of striking Tesla mechanics is so low that IF Metall refuses to reveal how many are striking, and recently expelled some Tesla employees for not obeying their power play of striking.
Recently the NYT finally said only a few dozen are striking. Sad to see previously trustworthy news outlets like AP resorting to abject fake news to smear Tesla and spread a narrative. And it's spread and repeated on places like HN with no critical thinking or research.
Dude. Relax, I’m pointing you at an issue, not that particular article, neither numbers. Geez…
The point being… you asked for sources, I pointed out some I heard about, and you jump at me with some argument I’m not even interested in. I don’t care who’s right and who’s wrong.
The bottom line is Musk started a fight and people walked out.
BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country. If you're aiming to be the company that produces the most vehicles in the world, it certainly sounds like it's not going in the right direction for them.
Isn’t this more like a Huawei vs Apple thing? BYD sells more cars, Tesla makes more money (revenue and profit). It will be more interesting to see what happens as BYD moves more into model 3 territory.
> BYD are selling the most cars, and is the fastest growing in terms of sales in the country
Source? BYD aren't selling the most cars in Sweden.
> BYD beat Tesla - grew fastest in Sweden in 2023
Tesla sold 20K cars and BYD sold 3K in Sweden in 2023. How is that beating Tesla? They went from 1.1K cars to 3K, so had better percentage growth than Tesla
From one of the links in the comment you're replying to:
> Det är i det sista kvartalet 2023 som BYD kan stoltsera med bättre siffror än Tesla. BYD rapporterar att de sålt 526 409 elbilar från och med oktober och fram till årets slut.
> Teslas försäljning å sin sida slog rekord och blev den högsta för ett givet kvartal i tillverkarens historia. Resultatet blev 484 507 bilar. 41 902 färre än BYD.
---
> It is in the last quarter of 2023 that BYD can boast better figures than Tesla. BYD reports that it sold 526,409 electric cars from October through the end of the year.
> Tesla's sales, on the other hand, broke records and became the highest for a given quarter in the manufacturer's history. The result was 484,507 cars. 41,902 fewer than BYD.
Huh? Literally I've seen people on HN making the exact opposite arguments about companies bending over rules for certain markets only to lose the market eventually, hence considered a bad example.
Musk Derangement Syndrome on the first comment about a different car company making a very interesting product. I also saw this in comments in articles about Boeing and Toyota this week.
Is there a browser mod to hide comments like this? Bonus points if it hides the snide demoralization-style comments that have started infesting HN too ("Oh you are a software engineer? Let me tell you why you are ignorant without knowing anything about you")
I guess I'll do the same? Why have curious conversation when you can assume the worst?
> Tesla sales this Q have been suppressed by people awaiting model refreshes
You're just saying "Tesla had less sales because of bad $X" with fancier words. The importance is not why Tesla fucked up (that's up to them to figure out), but that they're now being surpassed even though they had a huge headstart.
Included in the stat are $10K cars sold in China, maybe Tesla doesn't want to compete in the extreme low end just like Apple doesn't make $150 phones. Being a profitable barely #2 in a large and growing market is somehow fucking up?
If you are world #2 in your field of work do you consider yourself a failure and that you fucked up? That's a sad existence.
> If you are world #2 in your field of work do you consider yourself a failure and that you fucked up? That's a sad existence.
Personally, I wouldn't, I don't care what "position" I'm at, as long as I have enough. But I'm fairly sure that Musk would take that as a failure, especially if you've been #1 for a bunch of quarters and suddenly you aren't.
Musk and Tesla opened up EV patents to help other car companies make and sell EVs, more EVs are getting into the hands of people so that's a good thing.
States you can use Tesla patents if you agree to let Tesla use your patents, rip-off your products, make counterfeits, and steal your trade secrets.
That is worse than standard patent reciprocity agreements and I think most companies would prefer paying for regular patent licensing over such ludicrous IP overreach. Tesla and Elon Musk somehow proposed something even less open than regular patents and had the gall to lie about being openness advocates.
There are no better sources, that is literally the official legal text of their pledge.
“asserted, helped others assert or had a financial stake in any assertion of
(i) any patent or other intellectual property right [highlighted for emphasis] against Tesla
(ii) any patent right against a third party for its use of technologies relating to electric vehicles or related equipment”
Condition 1 states you can not assert any intellectual property right against Tesla. Intellectual property rights include patents, copyrights (protects against rip-off products), trademarks (protects against counterfeits), and trade secrets (protects against insider stealing).
This is explicit and deliberate as condition 2 states only patent rights are protected for others.
Tesla then goes on to reiterate that it explicitly and deliberately protects its own copyright and trademark:
“challenged, helped others challenge, or had a financial stake in any challenge to any Tesla patent; or marketed or sold any knock-off product (e.g., a product created by imitating or copying the design or appearance of a Tesla product or which suggests an association with or endorsement by Tesla)“
They literally need that additional “I’m about to screw you” clarification clause to make double-sure that if you try to fight the terms in the future as unconscionable they can point to how they made double explicitly sure that you realize the rights Tesla is extending you are explicitly a tiny fraction of what Tesla is demanding from you.
Those terms are so unfair it is ridiculous and it is insulting that Tesla dares to claim it, in any way, represents a good faith patent and openness pledge. I can find a more honest promise from a used car salesperson.
I'd say dieselgate, Tesla self-driving safety investigation and the recent Toyota/Daihatsu scandal shows regulations are not working as well as people wish them to.
3km / hr does not get you very far if you’re paddling against a current. I hope that no one abuses the feature or use it to do the dumb things people often do when they see a flooded road.
So if there is any wind at all, your luxury SUV is just going to get blown around wherever the wind blows. I've personally never been to a lake with no wind. Maybe it's useful foolishly ford a washed washed out road and get swept down-river.
I don’t disagree with you. Where I grew up there was a steel grated metal bridge. It would flood. Constantly someone in a truck would try to drive over, get swept against the guard rail, and have to be rescued by the local fire department. Eventually they just started sitting there in a truck whenever it flooded to prevent people from trying it.
(It was a rural area… drive around those bridge closed signs ).
I wouldn’t say it’s that bad. 3km/hr is roughly the speed of a rec kayak, and people paddle those. But of course, it might create a false sense of security because weather that’d cause flooding…
I’d also worry about how well the car’s bottom deals with underwater obstructions. And of course that people who own this car would engage in the same sort of shenanigans that we see with Tesla Autopilot.
The car’s interior is a welcome bit of originality compared to the styling in the usual high-end offerings.
Which the article says shuts down immediately when the vehicle starts floating. So maybe it mostly serves as the same reverse status symbol as snorkels on other SUV.
I see China coming for the US auto industry, and fast.
It’s 100% the fault of our industry for sitting around doing nothing but repackaging old technology in overpriced chonker trucks and trying to obstruct the EV transition with disinformation. All they want to do is sell the same mediocre gas guzzler forever.
Innovators’ dilemma strikes again.
Of course I guess Japan decimated US auto last time. It was kinda the same deal. US companies just wanted to sell super heavy low tech V8 gas guzzlers like the Ford LTD. Japan came with reliable efficient cars and ate out the market.
What activities with SUVs are environmentally friendly? Keeping to a trail seems ok, everything else like fording rivers, travelling in groups, going off trails invite criticism.
Yes. Those things are illegal because they tear up the land unnecessarily.
The roads are maintained, they're packed, they're graded, they're specially designated places for us to travel so we don't tear up the whole earth. We pay taxes to do so. I'm not asking to drive on a road I don't pay for. We've all banded together in soceity to build this infrastructure for our shared use.
It's like the path in your yard. Wouldn't you expect people to walk on the sidewalk to your front porch and not walk all over the yard?
I just assumed it was a really really big car when compared to a horse. It must provide ample head room for a human if that's the ratio. I guess it could be a Shetland pony or something if I were to be generous, but of course it's just bad AI.
This kind of car pretty important for China. They are still way behind on drainage in major cities, it isn’t uncommon to see under road passes flooded during heavy spring rains. Japan would have the same problem, but they’ve sunk billions into drainage, the Tokyo drainage system is a world wonder at this point.
Cool car idea, but I wish someone would sit down with them to come up with a new model name. “YangWang” doesn’t sound like something I’d want to tall people I own.
Because they're cheap. The majority of people don't care about quality as long as it's presented well and meets some fairly low benchmark level (whatever that is). Pretty much all industries have demonstrated this, and cars seem to be no exception.
Country of origin/ethics/politics also doesn't really play a part in purchasing for the majority of people (again, simply shown through sales)
Their floating inspired some to modify beetles to really make them amphibious [2,3].
Even if it officially floats, I wouldn't like to go up against a flooded river in a 4WD [4]. In this example, the wheels snagged and flipped the car.
[1] https://www.arnoldclark.com/newsroom/527-why-do-volkswagen-b...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQiS4paC_sk
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rRwzPz6rzs
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZNkgixXl7U