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Considering their size (a few hundred people for the whole studio AFAIK), Remedy consistently punches above their weight when it comes to graphics. Off the top of my head only Remedy and CD Projekt Red are able to compete with the big dogs (Unreal, Unity, EA Frostbite) when it comes to image fidelity and performance. Their GDC/siggraph/etc presentations are fantastic for anyone interested in computer graphics or technical art.

Alan Wake 2 is easily one of the most beautiful (from a technical perspective - IMO also from an artistic one but that's a 100% subjective thing) games ever released and it still looks good even when you turn all the settings down, which is a true achievement. It's hard to make a game scale down to older hardware while still looking good.

Though as commentators like Digital Foundry have noted, the game runs really badly if your GPU doesn't support Mesh Shaders (they mention the use of those for culling in the article). Mesh Shaders in this case enable a lot of really smart culling and dynamic level of detail so that things like coffee cups or tires can be perfectly round without having the 'every NPC has 10k-poly teeth in their mouth' problem that's currently sabotaging Cities Skylines 2's performance, and this is one of the big advantages offered by Unreal 5's Nanite.



Remedy was started by Demoscene hackers, including a bunch of Future Crew folks.

You can draw a pretty clean line from the incredible Second Reality demo[1] in 1993 to Alan Wake 2 thirty years later.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw17c70uJes


Not to mention crucial middleware like Umbra visibility, the development of Nvidia's RTX, an AI revolution or two, ...

As I've commented before on HN, honestly I could write a small book about these Finnish demoscene gods.


If you do please advertise it on HN. I'll buy a copy.


> development of Nvidia's RTX

like convincing Nvidia that dedicating silicon to RT calc was worth it, or writing part of the acceleration structures they use now ?



Nice so they did both hardware and software works, incredible.


The original modern tile-based rasterisation architecture is from Bitboys (also Finnish ex-demoscene), via fabled vapourware Glaze3D, which eventually made its way to AMD and Nvidia.


you should!


> without having the 'every NPC has 10k-poly teeth in their mouth' problem that's currently sabotaging Cities Skylines 2's performance

Sad to see an otherwise good comment end with a misconception. The problems with the performance is much grander than just "teeth rendered but not visible" (https://blog.paavo.me/cities-skylines-2-performance/), although I guess it's a illustrative point. Missing LODs and lack of culling are the grander issues.


"Teeth rendered but not visible" is just saying "missing lods and lack of culling" in a rhetorically more effective way. I don't think anybody thinks it's the teeth specifically causing the perf issues, they're merely a concrete example.


> Missing LODs and lack of culling

That is the exact start of the sentence of which you quoted the end of:

> Mesh Shaders in this case enable a lot of really smart culling and dynamic level of detail


The article you linked specifically points out how expensive and unoptimized the teeth are. I'm not sure why you linked it, if it undermines the point you're trying to make?


This article was just discussed here, might be a better link?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38153573


Some extremely good GPU devs in Finland, demoscene prob has a lot to do with it. Remedy rocks.

Isn’t CD Projekt Red moving to UE5 for future titles? Shame, Cyberpunk was gorgeous - would have loved a multiplayer game with that engine.


Only for the next Witcher series. Cyberpunk 2 (w/e it ends up being called) is still on their in house engine.

(Don't ask me for a source, I don't remember where I saw that info)


> Cyberpunk 2 (w/e it ends up being called) is still on their in house engine.

How sure of that are you?

There are several reports that the sequel to Cyberpunk 2077 will be using UE5 as well.

As in, CD Projekt Red have purposely switched all future projects to UE5.

* https://screenrant.com/cyberpunk-2077-phantom-liberty-dlc-la...

* https://kotaku.com/cyberpunk-2077-phantom-liberty-expansion-...


I can confirm that all future games at CD Projekt RED will be using Unreal Engine.

Unless of course something changes during the development of the next Witcher game and they decide to go back to RED Engine.


Thanks. :)


Ok then they changed it. At one point it was still on the in house engine.


No worries. :)


Funnily enough, both Colossal Order (Cities: Skylines 2 devs) and Remedy are Finnish companies, yet only one suffers from GPU performance issues.


One is a small company developing a city builder in Unity, the other are ex demoscene GPU gods building a custom state-of-the-art engine themselves. Nuff said!


Do people still trust CDPR? I bought 2020 when it came out and was incredibly disappointed at the unoptimised buggy shitshow that it was. I'd waited for it since it was first announced, and am even into the genre enough to feel a little angry buzz in the back of my head at how much that franchise (obviously including the RP game) rips off Stephenson/Gibson etc.

Have they pulled a No Man's Sky, since, or something?


Yes, there are still bugs, but Cyberpunk is actually great now, and the new expansion Phantom Liberty is chef's kiss.


Hmmm, maybe I'll have to give it another try sometime then!

Although I'm starting to prefer retro games, great modern releases are so few, now.


> would have loved a multiplayer game with that engine.

this strikes me as an extremely silly statement. Their engine doesn't seem to have multiplayer.


Your reply would have been a lot nicer without the first sentence


that's ok


REDengine doesn’t do multiplayer at the moment, but it could in the future if they kept developing it / more games with it. I’m sure they’ll make great games with Unreal too


Remedy has 360 employees.

CDPR has 1236 employees.

DICE (makers of Frostbite) has 714 employees.

Epic has 2200 employees (before the recent layoffs).

all numbers from Wikipedia.


Frostbite is its own sub-company within the E.A umbrella. While Frostbite is used by the titles from DICE and we share parts of our offices, the two companies are rrally distinct for a couple of years now.

Frostbite had roughly 300 employees when I joined 2 years ago.


Thanks for correcting me, I am just an idiot with a Wikipedia addiction.


Remedy are basically Future Crew famous for Unreal/Second Reality (demo). Who else should push GPU to its limits than the ones who defined/popularized modern computer graphics?


If you haven't seen Second Reality, it's definitely worth a watch, even as a historical artifact. Pushing the limits of what was possible in 1993.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFv7mHTf0nA


Here's a 60fps video of the same demo. The demo-sceners work really hard to make everything 60fps(1 vbl), so watching it in any other frame-rate feels wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw17c70uJes


Nitpicky: for a lot of parts that would have actually been 70Hz (from the 320x200 VGA mode 13h), and having run the demo back in 1993 it definitely was not as smooth as in the video above on my 486/66MHz (and the Pentium had only been out for a few months at the time).


Insomniac Games (Spider-Man (2), Ratchet&Clank: Rift Apart) and Guerilla Games (Horizon Forbidden West) also both have amazing looking engines.


From Software (souls games)

Rockstar with the GTA series

Valve, Blizzard?


Also Naughty Dog


You don't exactly need Mesh Shaders or any other state-of-the-art techniques to cull 99% of C:S2's polys. Just some simple stuff that games have done since the 90s.


>Alan Wake 2 is easily one of the most beautiful (from a technical perspective - IMO also from an artistic one but that's a 100% subjective thing) games ever released

I just don't see it. Looks like RE2make to me. And as far as art direction Dishonored 2/DOTO are dramatically better looking


Capcom's engine is extremely impressive especially the fact it can handle extremely beautiful triple AAA games then they can also go around and port old nintendo DS games as well.


I see it!


Shame I won’t be able to play it as it’s only on the epic game store, which I refuse to use


The console versions are quite good


I usually can't stand playing anything at 30fps, but the combat and pacing are deliberately slow in Alan Wake II, and I've been surprised how little it has bothered me (quality mode on PS5).


why?


Not OP, but after getting used to Steam and GOG I don't really want to use anything that doesn't have text reviews.


That's fair, as it's your preference. It's my preference too to use steam just because it's where I have the most games and I like keeping things tidy and in 1 place. Though it's not an ideological stance, which "refuse" leads me to believe. I'm genuinely curious about the reason an adult would take that position. Last time I asked (a couple of years ago) on Reddit I didn't get, ummm, mature responses.

If there is a game I'm interested in, I'd use whatever is cheaper/available for it.


My reason for refusing to give the Epic store money is pretty simple: Paid exclusives are bullshit. Especially when they're used as fodder to promote "competition", when such things are anything but.


A lot of games are exclusive to Steam. People are currently pretty angry about Sea of Stars, which explicitly committed to a GOG release, and then decided not to have one.

Return to Monkey Island also released as a Steam exclusive.


That’s fair. I view it as just business. It certainly doesn’t affect me or any consumer. It only affects Valve, which I don’t care about. Maybe valve should pay developers more. Epic takes far less than steam does from developers, so I definitely understand the appeal to developers.


It does affect some consumers, without valve and proton, I would probably not be playing many games.


Proton works for non-steam games too.


> It certainly doesn’t affect me or any consumer.

  $ ./EpicInstaller-15.17.1.msi 
  bash: ./EpicInstaller-15.17.1.msi: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error
Turns out Epic doesn't work on my platform of choice. Apparently it does affect me. Certainly.


Neither does steam on my opened router. This is a nonsensical argument.


No it isn't. I can play lots of games on my machine. I can't play, specifically, Alan Wake 2, since it's unavailable for purchase either standalone or an a platform that supports Linux.

Of course it's their choice where to release it, but saying, specifically, that it doesn't affect any consumer is just plain wrong.


It does effect you. Its a reduction of choice that benefits no one.

And since there's a vastly bigger audience on Steam vs the Epic Store, I don't really think that split matters as much as people would have you believe.


The FTC would disagree with you. Generally exclusives improve competition unless it's a monopolist doing it. Which is not Epic in this case.

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...

As long as storefronts have to compete for games, this is what that looks like. There's not really any way to get rid of exclusives without hurting competition. Would you want a law passed for games to be required to be put on certain storefronts? For storefronts to be required to accept all games submitted to it? Either one would hurt competition by giving too much power to either the game publisher or the storefront.


No I think what I want is pretty obvious. No exclusives. I don't honestly care what shitty storefront something is on, as long as its not limited to one. That's literally my only gripe.

Besides publishers are already free to decide where the games they publish go or don't, so I'm not sure where the "too much power to publishers" thing is coming from.


>I don't honestly care what shitty storefront something is on, as long as its not limited to one.

But that's not unique to paid exclusives. That's not even unique to Epic, Valve's own games are exclusive to a single storefront. You should boycott them for the same reason.

There is a cost to releasing games on multiple storefronts, forcing games to release on multiple stores only hurts smaller developers. Some smaller developers also skip storefronts altogether. Minecraft and Factorio were initially sold without any storefront. Is that still considered limited to one and therefore an exclusive?

>Besides publishers are already free to decide where the games they publish go or don't, so I'm not sure where the "too much power to publishers" thing is coming from.

I'm talking about cases where the storefront doesn't want to sell the game. Say the game has adult content, or the game has is just unfinished and not good. If storefronts are required to carry games. Otherwise games that only get accepted to a single store will continue to be exclusive to that single store.

Same thing with smaller developers, are they expected to cater to the whim of multiple storefronts to be able to release a game? One of my favorites, Zachtronic's Opus Magnum was rejected from GoG initially.


I'm strictly talking about the ones that are paid timed exclusives, nothing else. No where did I say anything about being anyone being required to do anything. You added that.

If a publisher chooses to do a single store front, then fine w/e. I don't have a problem with that. Its when a storefront bribes a publisher to keep a product exclusive to one store, in an attempt to force consumers on to that store that they likely otherwise wouldn't have used, that I have problem with.


I was going off your initial point of what you want: No exclusives. Not just paid timed exclusives.

>Its when a storefront bribes a publisher to keep a product exclusive to one store

That's not a bribe, that's a business transaction. Do you bribe a store to give you a product?

>If a publisher chooses to do a single store front, then fine w/e.

This contrasts with your previous: "as long as its not limited to one"

So now publishers are allowed to choose one storefront, but somehow they can't be paid to make that choice? How should they be making that choice if not by how much each storefront is offering?


AW2 was funded by Epic. They are thr publisher in this case.


This usually applies but for Alan Wake 2 Epic is the publisher. So your argument is like getting angry at Valve for not releasing their games (dota, cs, half life, etc) on Epic store or GOG.


Well I wasn't specifically thinking about Epic the publisher there, because yes I agree that is dumb and I didn't actually know that Epic was the publisher here. I thought it was just another dumb exclusivity thing.


I agree with you. I want to play Alan Wake 2 on PC and since it is only sold on the Epic Store I will buy it there.

If it was on Steam I would have likely bought it on Steam. But it’s not. So in my case at least, this exclusive is effectively driving me to buy on the Epic Store.

I find it sort of funny that many (not all) complaints about the Epic Store are the same things gamers complained about when Steam was released 20 years ago.


I think it is only fair to compare the Epic vs modern Steam. That Steam had the same issues 20 years ago, is kind of irrelevant if expectations have risen.


Not OP, but because EPIC is anti-linux.


Same reason I don’t want to have a half dozen streaming providers. I don’t want to have a bunch of different stores and launchers with different games on each.

Plus it’s a terrible store front from all I’ve heard and I do not wish to support it




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