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I wonder if all countries are this ideologically dogmatic. On one hand, you have PragerU. On the other hand, you have organizations like this that insist we need to give severe drug addicts private hotel rooms that they can trash.

You hear a lot about Finland's success with homelessness being credited to housing first. However, they also are very aggressive with compulsory psychiatric treatment, which this author would consider unethical.



There’s nothing contradictory with compulsory psychiatry, providing housing, and ending the war on drugs. The US’ hardcore line on drugs has clearly been an abject failure and its time to reverse the damage we’ve done before its too late.


Compulsory psychiatry is controversial, though. While "Housing First" (and potentially with some unconditionality attached) is controversial on the right, compulsory psychiatry is controversial on the left (and I think more so than Housing First on the right).


In the US, I guarantee that compulsory psychiatry would become corrupt in just a couple of years. You'd find people being sent to institutions for the mildest of infractions.

Back in the 1970s, there was a movie I watched, starring Alan Arkin, called The Other Side of Hell[0].

It was modeled on The Patuxent Institution[1], which has known some controversy[2].

There's a story (I think the movie references it), where someone was admitted for thirty days, for losing their shit at a traffic stop, and ended up doing thirty years.

It's a Real Bad Place. I met someone that did nine years, there, but he earned it.

[0] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078043/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patuxent_Institution

[2] https://www.petition2congress.com/ctas/citizens-against-crue...


Yeah, Germany has had similar cases, and then of course there's the Rosenhan Experiment [0].

That's why it's controversial. Housing First is controversial because it, too, will be corrupted if there's no additional action, and will mostly become the housing component of a UBI, likely with significantly higher costs as some people will not be able to function in the provided housing, damage it, and at the same time have the right to an undamaged home.

Putting people behind bars is less controversial on the right, spending the budget on social causes for eternity is less controversial on the left.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment


> some people will not be able to function in the provided housing, damage it, and at the same time have the right to an undamaged home.

At some point along that path, it seems reasonable for a society to say “okay, your next home is one that you cannot damage with lots of sturdy metal and concrete furnishings”.


But why would that sturdy building need to be a prison?

Why can't we just build sturdy housing that's difficult to damage?


Partially because it is super expensive; no doubt it could be made somewhat cheaper but the cost of even a normal "jail cell" is quite high compared to a stick-built building.

But "jails without locked doors" would be a good middle ground. Provide security like a jail, but the "inmates" are free to come and go.


Isn't providing security service even more expensive than just building the sturdy housing? How is that a middle ground?


It's a middle ground between jail and "regular" public housing.

Why might that be needed? If someone is an anti-social asshole who chronically destroys public housing, they will need some level of supervision (even if it's just to prevent them pouring concrete powder into the drains of an otherwise indestructible building, because the society who says everyone has a right to housing probably won't let that mean "without functioning plumbing").


You can:

1. build normal housing

2. build "blast-proof" housing

3. build "inmate-proof" housing

The last is commonly called a jail; but then you have guards and other support staff - you can have the support staff without having it be an actual jail. They can be there to prevent fights/monitor health/etc, and you could have varying amounts.


It doesn't need to be a prison. That's why I phrased it as I did, but if you tear up two public houses and society says you have a right to a third, that third should be indestructible even if that means it's less comfortable than the ones afforded to people who manage to care for them properly.


Jon Ronson, a journalist, told a story[0] about a guy he interviewed in an Asylum that had pretended to be crazy to get out of a minor crime (I think shoplifting).

The promise to the Judge was, you do a month of psych ward, get some counseling, and get out. "Sweet!" he said, "Better than doing a year in the can for stealing". His psychiatrist branded him a sociopath and put him on some pills that he, a liar, didn't need. They changed him for the worse, a sane man entered the asylum and day after day he was turning into a raving lunatic. "I'm not crazy!", he said - but that was only more fuel for the doctors, as it was clearly something a crazy man would say to get out. The attitude around here was that if you yelled, you got more pills, maybe a beating by an angry male nurse too. If you stay quiet, you don't get out. "I don't need any of this! I was pretending! Please let me out!" he cried.

The nurses held him back and tossed him back into a padded room. As they dragged him, he kicked and screamed that he was not crazy and didn't need help, but it was all pointless. His psychiatrist later told Jon that the alternative was worse, that he was a liar, a pretender, and someone that willingly gets in here for any reason clearly belongs in the bobby hatch.

He would never get out again. Jon met him on his 18th year in the tin, he clearly wasn't right in the head when they talked, the pills, electroshock sessions and pointless talks with the Psychiatrist every week had clearly sapped this man of any energy he might have once had. He was a ghost of a man now, hunched, old and weak. What a punishment for stealing a can of beans.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c

Don't yell at me if I don't get the details right, I doubt it matters if he stole a can of beans or a bottle of whisky.


> In the US, I guarantee that compulsory psychiatry would become corrupt in just a couple of years.

We already have court-ordered private drug and alcohol recovery programs (offered as an alternative to jail time) renting out their patients as unpaid labor to, eg, chicken processing plants and offering no actual treatment.


I wouldn't mind seeing a citation on that. I am quite aware that the rehab/detox industry has some very shady actors, but I've not heard that.


Here's the link to the article I read on it: https://revealnews.org/article/they-thought-they-were-going-...


Thanks.

Sounds like an ugly place, but I doubt there's too many places like it. Addicts in early Recovery are not an especially reliable workforce. I think that SynAnon was like that, in the early days.

The problem with addicts, is that society hates them, so it's fairly easy to do what you want with them.

Also, a lot of rehabs and detoxes are run by addicts, and many of them have not progressed too far in Recovery, themselves.


Compulsory psychiatric treatment sounds insane, to me. Compulsory drug treatment amounts to assault, and "compulsory psychotherapy" isn't a thing - the patient has to want to engage with the treatment, or they're not really being treated.


Without those, the only remaining compulsory treatment is prison, or banishment. And we're out of frontiers to banish people to.


You seem to have overlooked:

- Community service

- Fines

- Curfews

- Binding-over

- Suspended sentences

Those are the alternatives that leap to mind; i'm sure there are many more choices for sentencing magistrates.


We're assuming a homeless person who is uncooperative; why would they suddenly start cooperating over fines, et al?


They could be a law-abiding homeless person. You know: someone like you, maybe, that lost their home to their wife in a nasty divorce.

Or maybe they comply with the court's orders, because they don't want more severe sanctions? Fact is, some states seem to manage without throwing people in the can as soon as possible; some states use incarceration as a last resort.

[Sorry, upthread person; I wasn't trained on US constitution. As far as I'm concerned, jail, prison, penitentiary, reform school are all the same as incarceration. At least for the purposes of this discussion.]


Those people I would assume aren't the ones refusing help and pissing in the corner of their provided house.


It's gotten a whole lot better since the 90's, but still a long way to go.


People who are arguing that drug addicts be given hotel rooms are not on the other end of the spectrum. That's a center-left policy at most.

It's a massively inefficient "solution" that does nothing to address the issue. Provide housing, don't give a ton of money to hotel chains.


Arguments for hotel rooms right now are often referring to purchasing actual hotel buildings and running them as shelters with private rooms - California and Washington have both done this on occasion.


>”That's a center-left policy at most.”

I don’t like this kind of thinking. We should be evaluating the idea on its own merit, not tying to frame it as something acceptable because it is centrist - a word which is rapidly loosing any distinction.


I believe gp was suggesting it is unacceptable because it is centrist.


Finland definitely does not have aggressive compulsory psychiatric treatment. About the only case where you can get involuntarily admitted is if you actively try or threaten to harm yourself or others.


Oh, we've got plenty of that, but still can't do much if anything about it. Lots of talk from both sides on how to handle it, but no real action because none of the "solutions" address the problem.


> However, they also are very aggressive with compulsory psychiatric treatment, which this author would consider unethical.

Based on what?

You think the author would be against additional mental health resources for homeless people? I highly doubt it.




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