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The enduring mystery of ‘Jawn,’ Philadelphia’s all-purpose noun (2016) (atlasobscura.com)
86 points by tomcam on Sept 16, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 133 comments


I've been using variations of "jawn" or "jawns" as my username for 20+ years.

It's a word that has endured surprisingly well, as slang goes. And it's a conspicuously egalitarian term. You'll find it used in both blue-collar and white-collar settings, and across racial lines. There's very little tribal attachment. Nobody cares if you appropriate it. The general sentiment is the more jawn users, the better.

But unfortunately, I'm afraid it may have jumped the shark when the "Jawn Morgan" billboards started appearing:

https://billypenn.com/2022/05/25/jawn-morgan-billboards-phil...


ehhhh I disagree. I definitely cringe when I hear a hipster who's lived here for 2 years try to inject jawn into every conversation. Feels very forced. Also Jawn being put on pins and shirts is also very cringe to me


> when I hear a hipster who's lived here for 2 years try to inject jawn into every conversation. Feels very forced.

Same thing happens with "y'all", even though it's nowhere close to being as esoteric/regional. A couple years ago, Twitter seemed to have become obsessed with incorporating it conspicuously into every other tweet. I didn't even know "y'all" had rules until that happened. (I couldn't really tell you what those rules are, but it was popping up in places that were so syntactically awkward, by people who were clearly not "y'all" natives. So they definitely exist.)


I love ya'll because second person plural is something that English annoying lacks.

I'm also a fan of habitual be because it's something that can be expressed in English, but it sounds verbose or relies on context whereas "I be" is self explanatory without any context -you know that the speakers means "I regularly do/feel ___ "

My favorite phrase puts them together: "ya'll be trippin" is IMO the most efficient way in the English language to tell a group of people that their behavior is unacceptable.


On the one hand "yous" fills this void in a way that is more consistent with the rules of pluralizing words, but on the other hand it also introduces a homophone with "use" which could hypothetically lead to confusion. So which is worse, inconsistency (y'all) or ambiguity (yous)?

Ultimately, since "yous" never fits in the same grammatical slot as "use" (different part of speech), there's never any real chance at confusion anyway. Therefore I weigh in on the side of "yous".

Once again New York has it right and the rest of yous be trippin.


I can see an immediate use for "y'all be trippin'" in the next presidential address on the topic of the January 6th insurrection.


I also get annoyed when people I grew up started saying y'all. WE"RE PHILADELPHIANS WE SAY YOUS or you guys


Yinz be trippin'.


I welcome the imminent and inevitable "y'all" supremacy as a way to help destigmatize the US southern accent. It's just a damn good word, y'all.


y'all are right


Sentences that end with a y’all still come across as distinctly Southern. Sentences that begin with y’all, on the other hand, sound normal or dare I say even hip. To me that is.


Thanks y’all


y'all is a fantastic alternative to "guys" and I will die on that hill.


This is the reason it’s gaining popularity.


> I definitely cringe when I hear a hipster who's lived here for 2 years try to inject jawn into every conversation. Feels very forced.

Yinz [0] has a special place in my heart, because I was born and raised in western PA, but yinzers [1] sometimes leaving me feeling the same way.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinzer


"I definitely cringe" and "Also ... is also ... very cringe to me"

You certainly get plenty of mileage out of the word cringe. Is it a verb, is it an adjective - who knows? Your also ... also construct riffs on "either ... or", "both ... and" and the like. There must be a name for terms like that - you get them in Latin too so they've been around for a while eg nec ... necque (neither ... nor).

Jawn is just a colloquialism but I've seen also ... also several times before now. I've also seen very cringe too.

I am not taking the piss but I feel that I am watching language evolve right in front of me. I suspect that whilst this article and set of threads gets itself all whizzed up over jawn, it is missing the rather bigger point about language and conversations that travel at the speed of light instead of just sound and is distributed by the internet and not just the post office.

On HN we pontificators have an audience that a Roman Imperator could only dream of.


[flagged]



you'd have to be blind and deaf not to notice that gradual downhill slide of popular vocabulary. It may have been said with a bit more grace, but they're not wrong either.

"Gee, 20% of this paragraph is the same word, perhaps it would serve me well to mix it up."


Yeah. I feel like there's two types of people that actually use jawn: those that are very Philly and those that are trying, really, really hard to sound Philly. I can't say I've said jawn with a straight face since I was a little kid.


For Boston/Mass it's "wicked." You can tell when someone injects it naturally and they grew up with its various contexts, or you're a new transplant and it's usually used in every other sentence.

I was the latter circa 2012 but ~8 years in Boston tempered my use, haha.


> across racial lines... Nobody cares if you appropriate it.

It seems like the first tweet from your linked article is suggesting otherwise.


ard



> According to experts, it’s unlike any word, in any language.

I introduce you to "kwan" (or "kuan") from Visayan, which serves the same purpose.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DoesNotTranslate/comments/jmkvbd/fi...

Kwan is not just a time-filler word like "um." You can legit use it in a sentence as an object-filler word and people still understand.

"I was surfing at the kwan and ate some kwan with hot sauce." "Was it good?" "Oh yeah!"



Yes! Very similar to my recollection (it was my not my first language, but lived there awhile).


But “smurf” also has adjective, adverb, and verb forms in addition to being a noun.


Smurf yeah!


I don’t believe that it’s unique “thing” is pretty widely used in a similar way.


Thingy, whatsit, whatchermacallit - there are loads of these words. “Jawn” may have slight differences in the way that it is used when compared with “whatsit”, but it doesn’t seem very different. “Dongle” used to be used this way (by the person who invented the copy-protection dongle, who then repurposed the word). And then there’a the old faithful Latin “re”.


"Thing" isn't used for people or places though.


You never met my ex-boss


Sounds very similar to usage of “da kine” in Hawaiian Creole English (i.e Hawaiian pidgin).


That struck me immediately too.


From your reference it can also be used as a verb, which is dope.

I kind of think that there must be a vast amount of Filipino culture I don't know about. Big population, but little penetration of the culture in mainland USA.


Filipino culture rocks. The food, the festivities, the languages, the zest for life.

Absolutely loved getting the chance to participate in it here and there. I miss speaking to native speakers.

The distinction of verbs and nouns in Austronesian languages generally are pretty lax.

Also cool, Tongan and Samoan speakers found Visayan numbering mutually distinguishable -- "lima" for 5, for example.


English has "verbing", too.

> "[E]asy conversion of nouns to verbs has been part of English grammar for centuries; it is one of the processes that make English English."

https://www.thoughtco.com/verbing-definition-1692587

Just like "jawn" is not unique (not even within English), in my experience there's almost nothing really unique in any language.


Verbing isn't unique, but I do like to explore etymological quirks.


Como "weón" en Chile // Like "weón" in Chile

https://spanish.stackexchange.com/a/4839

The "w" sound keeps repeating in the themes here, interesting.


That comes from "huevón", which is... really hard to explain in English. The Argentine "boludo" and "pelotudo" are in the same vein, and mean roughly the same non-sensical thing.

I'm not sure if the etymology is that an egg ("huevo") looks like a zero, so a dumb person or a loser is a "huevo" (an egg, meaning a zero) or "huevón" (huge zero), or if it has to do with testicles (because in Spanish it's common to call them eggs), so a "huevón" might someone who's "as dumb as a giant testicle". "Boludo" and "pelotudo" are more like the latter, for sure, though they could still derived from zero looking like a ball.

> The "w" sound keeps repeating in the themes here, interesting.

In weón it's really just a slight change from huevón, and mostly just dropping the 'v'.


In Korean geosigi (거시기) fills this role, which can be used as any part of speech.


...and is also used, unsurprisingly, as a euphemism for penis.


Is it usable in polite company?


Yes, the word came to be used as an euphemism because of its genericity, not the other way around. If the context doesn't suggest otherwise it is not considered impolite.


Quite interesting to me, thanks.



My favorite part here is that it's a noun and a verb

"i-kwan mo yung kwan" -> "just thing the thing"


Germans are probably unimaginative here, but "dings" would definitely qualify.


The English word thing is derived from it! had no idea


I grew up 10 minutes from Philadelphia, and I distinctively remember kids I know starting to say jawn in the mid 90s. I was like wait are you saying joint, as in a spike lee joint? and they were like no it's jawn. Around the same time everyone changed the emphasized word in the phrase "yeah it is" when in agreement. More recently it reminds me how people switched to "all the sudden" all of a sudden.


I was raised in south jersey, about 30m from Philly, and I remember exactly when jawn hit our little town, right around Y2K. I was in 9th grade at the time, and I remember it being like an arms race where people were throwing jawns out at every little thing, regardless of necessity. I also remember it pissed off a couple of the "cool kids" who were actively trying to coin "gwat" with the other students. It had some legs at first, but jawn came along and everyone forgot gwat.


that's so fetch!


Stop trying to make fetch happen.


that's so moosh of you


Nah, safe.


I was visiting Birmingham when "safe" was taking off in England (2006?) but hadn't reached Scotland yet. Was talking to a random guy in a bar, and I couldn't understand why he was so insistent that Birmingham was "safe"


Safe predates 2006 in the UK by a long distance. “Laters” was a fun one. A shibboleth to pretend you are from London if you live just outside.


Maybe among younger people in the South East of England, but it certainly hadn't spread all the way north at that point


Someone here's going to need to explain "safe" and "laters" to this Yank


"safe" is just some slang meaning like "cool"

"laters" would just be a short way of saying "see you later" - but it sounds really a bit lame and try-hard to me, or the kind of thing a middle-aged, middle-class person would write as dialogue for a working class urban teenage character in a TV show. I think quickthrower2 is saying the same thing but maybe they can correct me (sounds like they're England, so they'll know better than me).

Don't worry about either, you won't hear them particularly often :)


Yeah it was definitely try hard IMO. I said some of the old crap sayings but only said “laters” only in pure irony!


Thanks for scratching that itch. Laters definitely sounds contrive. Totally moosh.


Safe, mate!

(or less inauthentic, "nae bother")


Huh, I grew up in Cherry Hill and graduated HS in 2000, guess we missed it because I didn't learn about the term until years later.


OMG that's funny! Thanks for sharing.


Yeah I feel everyone around me who used this word added a bit of a "t" sound to the end. It wasn't until I was an adult I saw it spelled out like "jawn".


Maybe the opposite of jawn is jawn't?


Interestingly a "jaunt" is British English (or maybe just Scots?) for a little walk, like a stroll


> More recently it reminds me how people switched to "all the sudden" all of a sudden.

...and as a non-native english speaker, I just learned that "all of a sudden" is slang and not just a normal part of the language.

Wow!


I may be wrong but I think rather than 'slang' the correct word would be 'idiom'. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idiom


"all of a sudden" is definitely a standard idiom. In fact:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=%22all%20o...


"all of a sudden" is probably ubiquitous in english and so whilst it is an idiom, it is a standard idiom!


Related:

The Enduring Mystery of ‘Jawn,’ Philadelphia’s All-Purpose Noun (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20574296 - July 2019 (108 comments)

The Enduring Mystery of 'Jawn', Philadelphia's All-Purpose Noun - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11367406 - March 2016 (52 comments)


In California, we use "dude"

"Dude can be anything. Males are dude. Females are dude. My phone is dude. That cat over there, it is dude. The green light that only lasts long enough for 1 car to pass is dude. I have called my hair "dude". I have called my coffee maker "dude". The entire population of the world, and all of their belongings, are all dude." - Some post on Reddit


Is "dude" quite as flexible, though? It seems to me like its generic use is only valid when you're actually just personifying an object. For example, with my phone I might say:

> Come on dude, why are you so slow

> My old dude lasted me 6 years

> I love this dude

But I wouldn't say any of these things:

> I lost my dude earlier, can you call it?

> I spent $600 on this dude

> Don't you have your dude on you?

I'm a Brit, reflecting on the American dialect I've picked up, so I very much could be wrong. I'd be intrigued to know if you really do use "dude" like that.


> I spent $600 on this dude

This one sounds alright, to my ESL ears.

The rule it seems to me is you have to be pointing at the thing or making a clear reference to it. This dude right here is okay, some dude you own, while talking about some offscreen object, much weirder.


These all seem fine to me in northern California. Might raise some eyebrows in some other parts of the country.


> I lost my dude earlier, can you call it?

Yes to this one. It's gotta be clear from context.


“i just saw a dude in the women’s bathroom” is typically going to be interpreted in a way that doesn’t really match up with this take.


As a transplant to Philly for college from VA, Philadelphia definitely sits in a weird area when it comes to their cultural contributions. New York does their best to make sure people from Philly know they aren't allowed to be culturally relevant like they do with New Jersey so there's a little bit of mixing of culture from Philly to NJ. It has Baltimore to bully in a similar way as NYC does but evidence of the culture is obvious. Jersey club as a music genre is wholly from Baltimore but obviously influenced from Philadelphia.

But its influence seems to be completely stopped at DC, where people from Philly "who made it" but not in NYC try to show they aren't from Philly.

I lived there through college, and never felt any influence to pick up the slang since it seemed to just exist in a bubble that was ridiculed from all sides. I would say I wanted a hoagie at the store, because they would pretend they didn't know what a sub was, but thats about it.

But jawn seems like the most boring word that online articles like to talk about. Its obviously prevalent but its also not unknown and actually fairly common. When I was in Philly earlier this year a lawyer's ad on the radio used it prevalently to try and show some kind of connection to the city. Its kind of unique but uninteresting, similar to a broccoli rabe sandwich bloggers rave about since the best cheesesteaks in the city have basically been established for decades now.

Now an article explaining 'actin jo (joe??)' I'd love to read about because I've never gotten a straight answer on that, but have seen fights get started because one girl said it to another.


I claim "jawn" is very little known here on the West Coast (Seattle representing) but I am delighted to learn about actin jo


Turns out that actin Joe is barely on Google:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22actin+joe%22


Apparently Philadelphian culture is more contextual than literal. You just say what’s in your jawn and people understand.


there's a skateboard mag out of Philly called Skate Jawn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skate_Jawn


Wholly appropriate


shit is a synonym for jawn


For some reason, "shit" reads as a plural noun to me while "jawn" reads singular. I've never really thought about it, hah.

E.g. "can you grab the shit from my truck" vs "can you grab the jawn"


Sort of like sheep? Except what about the context "get out of here, you little shits"?

Edit: a_mechanic got here first: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32872443


I would've expected "that jawn" but couldn't for the life of me tell you why.


The words “this”, “that”, “the” imply a position of an object (or noun) relative to the speaker - they are called demonstrative pronouns.

You really need to know the difference if trying to speak Spanish: https://www.spanish.academy/blog/a-simple-guide-to-demonstra...


Hmm. Would you say "shit" is countably or uncountably plural?


Uncountable, e.g. "look at all this shit in my truck". I cannot count all the shit. For countable plural I will use the form "shits", e.g. "these two shits left their bikes on my lawn".


"I don't know shit about fuck."



I was thinking the same thing. Seems to function pretty much the same way.


Shit is almost never a synonym for a woman


I wonder if this gave South Park the idea for "marklar" [1]?

[1] https://southpark.cc.com/clips/151539/welcome-to-marklar


There's a similar word in southern Italy, "cazzafà" or "fattappost", which can mean basically anything you don't know or remember the exact word for.


I think whatever "linguists" did this "research" must be undergraduate internet searchers. For example in Russian the words "fignya/fignyushka" or the less polite "huynya/huynyushka" are used in a very similar way. They are a noun representing an abstract "thing" that the listener would understand from context.


I'm upvoting this jawn!


As a Philadelphian, i can sum up the usage of jawn as: a place, a thing or a girl/woman.

For example this is a valid sentence:

“Person 1: I was at the jawn down the street when that bad jawn from up the block walked in. But she didn’t say anything.

Person 2: oh that’s a bad jawn”

Translation:

“Person 1: I was at the place down the street when that pretty woman from up the block walked in. But she didn’t say anything.

Person 2: oh that sucks”


Is "whatever" a similar word in any way?

"“Person 1: I was at the whatever down the street when that bad whatever from up the block walked in. But she didn’t say anything.

Person 2: oh that’s a bad whatever”

?


I don’t think so. When I read that I don’t substitute the proper words in my head as I would with jawn. Also, “whatever” sounds negative to my ear, whereas jawn would be taken neutrally.


> The word “jawn” is unlike any other English word. In fact, according to the experts that I spoke to, it’s unlike any other word in any other language. It is an all-purpose noun, a stand-in for inanimate objects, abstract concepts, events, places, individual people, and groups of people.

Uh, "smurf" is like that too.


The Philly accent is maybe my least favorite in the USA, but jawn definitely needs wider circulation.


Bad take on all sides


Snap! You da kine.


Philadelphia born and raised and for my life I couldn't define what 'jawn' means.


Same although haven't been there for many years and still I never heard lawn once from my parents, my relatives or myself. Is there a more localized area of Philly that uses it - my family covers south and west Philly.


Same here, I only learned about it as an adult.


glad its not just me


...and then there was a perf regression cause the jawns were being autoboxed to Jawns...


All my jawn using friends here are going to love this.

I live outside Philly, and yes, they use jawn.


Jawn is useful for readability, but also provides an easy performance benefit too. Iterators for `std::unordered_map` will have the proper `const` values and the compiler won’t need to do any implicit conversions.


Hello GPT3 (or attempt at mocking GPT3 accusations?)


Trying to demonstrate that you can't replace literally any word with it?

'const' is more a qualifier or an adjective than an object/thing. You wouldn't s/fast/jawn/ in the sentence "a fast car", like you can't replace const in "a const iterator"


In D.C. and Baltimore it's more like "jont".


Sounds a bit like "yoke" in Irish English.


Wentz and Foles at Minnesota. Tom Brady rests.


Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. Shaka, when the walls fell.


Tom Brady, his hands empty.


Eagles fans when the ball fell.


Wait til people find out about ard


Ope.


Isn't "thing" another word that is like "jawn"?


what about “thing”? I’m highly sceptical that there are no other equivalent or even similar words in other languages


Ayo i'm from philly this made me chuckle


Hawaii equivalent is "da kine"


I was told by a Hawaiian native 40 years that "da kine" meant something is awesome but it appears not to be the case.


The thing is that it can mean that. It can also mean something sucks. It can also mean that thing over there, or that thing I did last week.


Oh! So I’m guessing tone of voice could have a strong influence on the meaning then?


context and tone


neat, thanks for clarifying. I feel vindicated and also ripped off ;) Was using it right, but only in a single context.




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