> If we believe we are responsible and are prepared to pay for it, in taxes, fines, lack of transport options, additional restrictions, higher costs...

That seems reductive in an inaccurate way. A consumer product which fully accounts for all negative externalities (or attempts to offset them via action) will cost more than one that doesn't, ceteris paribus.

So "paying more" (for a less destructive product) is literally the cost of that much less destruction.

Consumers can choose that choice, or not, and the vast majority don't (and can't).

(Whether that price is ultimately paid in taxes, fines, or product cost is irrelevant, as they all reduce to the same thing)

> > Right now it is us that is destroying life around us > > Speak for yourself. I'm not destroying anything.

By your very existence you are destroying life, or at least preventing it from existing. This is true for the average coyote, snail, and tree, because it is the nature of life in general, and isn't inherently evil.

Assuming you live in a building, have ever purchased anything made from plastic, eaten any food produced with artificial fertilizers or pesticides, used fossil fuel-based transportation... basically done anything involving modern life (which includes accessing the Internet), you have contributed to the destruction of life and habitats for other creatures, and done so in a way that is disproportionate to the destruction wrought by other lifeforms.

That should in no way stop us from questioning how we live, and to what extent we destroy the environment for our own benefit. But we will have to live with the fact that we do affect things by our very existence.

> Assuming you live in a building, have ever purchased anything made from plastic, eaten any food produced with artificial fertilizers or pesticides, used fossil fuel-based transportation... basically done anything involving modern life (which includes accessing the Internet), you have contributed to the destruction of life and habitats for other creatures, and done so in a way that is disproportionate to the destruction wrought by other lifeforms.

Was I wrong to eat, travel or use the internet? Should I wring my hands and flagellate myself for my existence?

Do you understand what 'wrong' is? Did I mean harm by the actions I took? No.

Did corporations act without care in providing me those things more cheaply? Yes.

Did governments wave their behaviour through, while lobbyists re-wrote the laws to ensure that corporations are able to make the people pick up the bill? Yes.

So, who is responsible again?

Instead of allowing yourself to be sent on a guilt-trip for your existence, you should stop playing the martyr and take a closer look at the causes of the problems. There are specific companies, people, actions (governmental and corporate) that have caused problems. If you take the leadership roles, you can't abstain your responsibilities to the weak.

Governments and corporations should bear the responsibility for their actions.

> There are specific companies, people, actions (governmental and corporate) that have caused problems. If you take the leadership roles, you can't abstain your responsibilities to the weak.

You... need to take a long hard look at human history.

There have been various peoples across the world that lived more in-tune with nature. That had much less destructive effect on their environment.

What happened to them? They were displaced, conquered or exterminated by a more industrialized group / nation. Every single time.

Why? It is the nature of competition. Humans have taken natural selection to a whole new level with tools and technology, but it really is the same thing.

Even if you "fix" particular corporations and governments, they will eventually be displaced by ones that don't care so much for the environment.

The only actual fix is to try to educate everyone about what's going on, and what we as a species are doing. And try to convince everyone to make some changes in how they live.

We should do this. But it is shortsighted to think that the problem is due to just a few bad actors. We all contribute, and we all must be part of the solution to the very problem inherent to our own nature. Is this hard? Yes, it very much is.

> The only actual fix is to try to educate everyone about what's going on, and what we as a species are doing.

Yes. But your fix and mine are different. You think that its the damage the environment that's the problem.

I agree to some extent, but I think there is a more fundamental problem - that of people slavishly following what the government+corporations have to say. These 2 groups work together and they are helping each other - not the people or the environment. They are perfectly prepared to use whatever excuse - the environment, disease, etc as long as it advances their authority. Increasing compliance to authority is the goal - if you agree it is right to pay taxes, fines, etc under the guise of helping the environment you are weakening yourself and will also fail to achieve the goal you desire.

'The people' have Stockholm syndrome with regards to the governance structure. We think people from the government are here to help. They are not lying when they say that - but they are here to help themselves. At your expense!

This was commonly understood - but it seems as the governance structure has increased its power, applied psychology to the masses (nudge units), altered educational systems, etc, etc, this has had the effect of training people to think that it is a neutral entity. People believe that we need to vote harder. It can never work.

Nietzsche said it best:

A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."

Consumers voluntarily choose to let those corporations get away with anything. It's that boring. They do it, because of the horror of lowering their living standard even a tiny bit to something that isn't unethical.

We need to get off oil and gas and what did the government do in Germany? They literally removed taxes from oil to boost dependence on Russia because populism is just that strong.

Heck, just look at homeowners, they vote in the exact laws that mega corporations need to corner the housing market. There are no conspiracy theories. Every single human on earth is responsible for the mess we are in.

I'm the problem and so are you.

You obviously make an exception for yourself. Why is that?

That's original sin! I don't believe in that (as I said above!). Humans are a blessing to this place, not a curse.

My existence is not a problem. But if you think that, follow it through as a line of reasoning. You will live in a world of self-hate, with the ultimate solution being to take your own and others lives. It is an anti-life position.

I personally don't agree with that position. But I do see signs of this sort of 'death-cult' thinking all around me! Its well promoted in the MSM.

It is, when your benchmark is permanence and immortality. If you change the benchmark, to something that is adopted to the nature of man, then the original sin of entropy doesn't exist.

Imagine measuring humans by using a unit of account that doesn't change like gold. From the eyes of an accountant, unemployed humans shouldn't exist. Due to their tendency to increase entropy, they are defective by birth.

Modern fiat currency tries to solve this problem by having a changing unit of account. The currency becomes defective to account for the defective humans.

But as I said, if your benchmark were a negative interest rate, then the fact that money represents a pristine slice of human time would not result into an original sin because the amount of pristine human time shrinks over time, to represent aging and your limited lifespan. Humans would no longer be defective. Every single human on this planet would be needed. You can even call them a blessing if you want.

However, there is no bias toward any specific population. You imply, more humans = better, which I disagree with. People should be allowed to decide how many humans they want on this planet.