I’m curious which ways you mean. Many things that we assume existed in the past were pretty unevenly distributed. Even something basic we take for granted like plumbing was only available in only a ~third of households in some states https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/dec/coh-plumb...
The turing test is a shit test for general intelligence, you can game it by making the AI generate a story that is more engaging than a typical boring human would do. Those stories will get much more human votes than a regular human. Some will go off track and notice it is a dumb program, but those are the minority so on average this dumb bot will pass the turing test.
This was a severely constrained version with limited public record, so paint me skeptical.
For instance there was a 5 minute limit.
From the article:
Simultaneous tests as specified by Alan Turing
Each judge was involved in five parallel tests - so 10 conversations
30 judges took part
In total 300 conversations
In each five minutes a judge was communicating with both a human and a machine
Each of the five machines took part in 30 tests
To ensure accuracy of results, Test was independently adjudicated by Professor John Barnden, University of Birmingham, formerly head of British AI Society
5 tests in 5 minutes that's just 1 minute each. In 1 minute it would be challenging to figure out you're not talking to ELIZA.
Really? What would happen if OpenAI dissapeared tomorrow and ChatGPT closed down? In practice, nothing. Ask yourself the same question about the truly important organizations in the world.
Hype might die down and some of the hundreds to thousands (yeah…) of doomed (because, even optimistically, most are plainly never gonna be worth the resources going into them) AI boondoggles at various startups and bigcos might get cancelled sooner than they’re otherwise gonna be.
Which might be bad for my personal short-term employment prospects, so here’s hoping that doesn’t happen. We can ride this BS to the next speculation bubble if we believe in ourselves. And don’t look down.
Its been widely reported without evidence existing, which should have been a redflag for anyone with brain. It was just "trust me bro" by the prime minister.
Everybody has been slowly backtracking on it over the last 2 days. Including Israel itself:
That's nonsense. I care a lot about Palestinian babies as an Israeli. The Hamas is the reason they are at risk.
Anyone who wants to support the Palestinian people needs to understand that the biggest obstacle to a Palestinian state and liberty is the Hamas who is conducting a Jihad. It doesn't care about Palestinian lives and considers them casualties in a holy war.
I think the bombings are terrible and don't help the Israeli cause one bit. But I can't really blame the leadership here. After watching the photos there's a rage going on here which is exactly what the Hamas wanted.
> I think the bombings are terrible and don't help the Israeli cause one bit. But I can't really blame the leadership here. After watching the photos there's a rage going on here which is exactly what the Hamas wanted.
Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas.
I think the shootings at the music festival and attacks on other civilians by Hamas were terrible and don’t help the Palestinian cause one bit. But I can’t really blame the Hamas leadership here. After watching the violent dispossession of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem and incursions into the al-Alqsa mosque there’s a rage going on here which is exactly what the IDF wanted.
But if anyone actually defended the attacks on Israeli civilians they would rightfully be called terrorist sympathizers.
So, I’ll hold you to the same standards. Do you stand by your words? Do you think that the Israeli leadership is not be blamed for the hundreds of dead infants and thousands of dead kids? Does the genocidal IDF have no responsibility for telling a million+ Gazans to leave their homes or be bombed to dead? Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?
> Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas.
Nonsense. The difference of intentionally executing babies and children and kidnapping civilians should be stark. Shame on you.
Unlike the Hamas Israel tried to have a peaceful solution multiple times. Including a Palestinian state. They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation.
> incursions into the al-Alqsa mosque there’s a rage going on here which is exactly what the IDF wanted.
Just like the Palestinian people are divided so are we. The IDF doesn't want anything, its an army. The current government includes people who are terrible racists and they did the al-Alqsa stuff. They are the Israeli counterparts of the Hamas.
I understand that rage and I honestly understood the recent incursions in Jenin, they made sense. They focused on settlers and on the military.
> Do you think that the Israeli leadership is not be blamed for the hundreds of dead infants and thousands of dead kids?
To some degree yes. I do. I think they will need to explain the justification to what they're doing. Unfortunately, Israel never recognized the authority of the Hague court. Also with the weakening democracy in Israel this is even more of a problem.
> Does the genocidal IDF have no responsibility for telling a million+ Gazans to leave their homes or be bombed to dead? Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?
The word genocide is problematic here. The IDF specifically issued a clearance warning indicating its targets in advance. That's not something you do if you plan to kill civilians.
Calling it ethnic cleansing is untrue at the moment. Even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't back that up. Notice that even now the Hamas is still firing missiles onto Israel and I just walked out of a shelter...
> The current government includes people who are terrible racists and they did the al-Alqsa stuff. They are the Israeli counterparts of the Hamas.
You say you see no paralells, and so, hypothetically speaking, you'd have no trouble if the Palestinians bombed the cities these law markers live in, who use the shield of democracy to hide behind a 10 million strong populace?
> They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation.
The Palestinians don't desire death. I'm sure, they'd want to live as freely and as purposefully as folks on the other side of the fence in Ashkelon and Ashdod.
> The IDF specifically issued a clearance warning indicating its targets in advance. That's not something you do if you plan to kill civilians.
What about the seige? There have been reports of shelling without warning, too. I recall, that's how a journalist reporting from there died.
Surely, there is a way other than destruction at this scale to kill a handful of who, you claim, are suicidal folks fighting for God?
> Calling it ethnic cleansing is untrue at the moment. Even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't back that up. Notice that even now the Hamas is still firing missiles onto Israel and I just walked out of a shelter...
Surely, you can see that the refugee camps of the West Bank, the barriers in Jerusalem, the walls in Hebron, the crossings at Gaza pack a generation of humiliation which leads to desperation that results in nothing but more pain. Both sides have suffered enough. The problem I see is, one side (in particular, the terriblly racist but democratically-elected government you allude to above) thinks some more years of fierceful force, while they have the economic, political, and military backing of the Western world and while the Arab world is reeling from political and socio-economic turmoil, and it could all be finished soon.
> You say you see no paralells, and so, hypothetically speaking, you'd have no trouble if the Palestinians bombed the cities these law markers live in, who use the shield of democracy to hide behind a 10 million strong populace?
I understand the missiles. I think it hurts their own people more but I do understand that. The saying here is that if Hamas puts down its arms there will be peace. If Israel puts down its arms there will be no more Israelis. That isn't wrong although the reality is more nuanced.
E.g. the PLO did put down its arms and the result isn't stellar for them either. This is exactly due to those racist government elements. The racists on the Israeli side actually supported Hamas until last week. They did that in order to weaken the PLO and weaken the chance of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, they were very successful.
The PLO at its current state is so weak, the Palestinian people have no real leadership. Even if Israel is successful in destroying the Hamas there will be a huge vacuum and no one to run a Palestinian state.
> > They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation.
> The Palestinians don't desire death. I'm sure, they'd want to live as freely and as purposefully as folks on the other side of the fence in Ashkelon and Ashdod.
I was writing about the Hamas not the Palestinian people. The Hamas wants death plain and simple. If you don't believe me I suggest reading up on them and their charter.
They consider any Palestinian civilian death as part of the holy war to be a blessing. They are unwilling to settle for a part of the land. They demand the entire state of Israel. There's no negotiating, no discussion and no compromise.
> What about the seige? There have been reports of shelling without warning, too.
I totally agree that this is horrible and isn't helpful to Israel or its cause. Unfortunately, there's a thirst for blood on the Israeli side. You need to understand the scale of this thing. It's a small country. It's as if 9/11 had 40,000 casualties adjusted to population size. Everyone knows someone who was there and probably at least one casualty.
Hamas new exactly what they were doing. That's why they kidnapped children. That's a trigger at a level and scale we've never seen. They know how to push the buttons and are doing it to trigger the government with the express intention for Israel to murder as many Palestinians as possible. They hope this will enrage the surrounding Arab countries enough to trigger an all out regional holy war for the destruction of Israel.
Israeli bombing civilians is something Israel is doing as part of a Hamas strategy. It's stupid and plain evil.
> I recall, that's how a journalist reporting from there died.
There were several journalist deaths but only one from Lebanon was reported here recently so I might have missed one. Israel said it is investigating it but honestly, they don't do a great job with that. To be fair, plenty of journalists died in US wars too.
But again. I think the bombings are terrible and mostly help the cause of the Hamas.
> Surely, there is a way other than destruction at this scale to kill a handful of who, you claim, are suicidal folks fighting for God?
I would surely hope so but there will be many casualties either way. Ground forces will go in and those will increase dramatically. This is warfare in neighborhoods. That's hard and deadly. Even a tank becomes vulnerable and often can't move. Finding the enemy in these situations is nearly impossible.
The logistic concept of destroying the buildings is removing places to hide when the ground forces move through the streets.
> Surely, you can see that the refugee camps of the West Bank, the barriers in Jerusalem, the walls in Hebron, the crossings at Gaza pack a generation of humiliation which leads to desperation that results in nothing but more pain.
I agree. This situation includes a lot of fault for Israel and its leadership. Unfortunately, I don't see things improving. Even if Bibi is finally held accountable for this debacle the question is who will replace him.
People write about these things a lot in the local papers. There are many organizations that try to fight for the Palestinian people and try to restore faith in a two country solution. But so much poison was thrown in the well that the majority of people around here refuse to see the other side.
Major claims are here are:
* Hamas was voted into power - they chose the Hamas.
* When the attack happened last week people were celebrating in the streets in Gaza.
They aren't wrong. For more than a decade Hamas controlled the narrative in the west bank and brainwashed a generation. They all believe that we're all murderers and must all be killed. How do you unwind that and make peace?
Since the Palestinian leadership was decimated who do you even make peace with?
As a very far left liberal humanist I'm at a loss here. I don't know how anyone can fix the current situation.
Thank you, you're so thoughtful and graceful despite being a victim of this conflict.
> ...the PLO did put down its arms and the result isn't stellar for them either.
Expulsion, ironically, is already what's happening there, and eventually, they might just get brushed out to Syria and Jordan in another 50 years or so (as the relatively richer Jewish diaspora continues to "buy" Palestinian land). See also: the expulsion of Indians from Burma, Uganda, Tanzania.
> There's no negotiating, no discussion and no compromise.
Hopefully, the Arab League can convince them one way or the other. I believe, by simply accepting the Israeli citizenship, ALL Palestinians stand a chance to fight it out politically, as otherwise, they're anyway "second-rate citizens", regardless of whether they're militant (Gaza) or not (the West Bank).
> They hope this will enrage the surrounding Arab countries enough to trigger an all out regional holy war for the destruction of Israel.
The powers-that-be, surely aren't that naive given the unconditional support Israel has always had from Europe and the Americas. ALL of their Arab neighbors are in no economic position to wage a war, even if there's political will. But they still went ahead with this despicable plan anyway... I am lost, really.
> Israeli bombing civilians is something Israel is doing as part of a Hamas strategy. It's stupid and plain evil.
Some would say (ex: https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide ... I don't), it is even more sinister to strike down / criminalize any and all forms of protests as antisemitism and pro-genocide, and then cancel the hell out of those who are filmed or photographed. Wonder if this arrogance will be the eventual undoing for the grand designs of the ruling Israeli conservatives.
> Israel said it is investigating it but honestly, they don't do a great job with that.
Not terrorism when people in uniform do it ;)
> Finding the enemy in these situations is nearly impossible.
From Israeli (tech) twitter, the sentiment I get is... all of Gaza is enemy, and couldn't care less if IDF nakba'd them a bit more in to Sinai.
> ...restore faith in a two country solution
If the Palestinians have any sense, they'd fight to get equal rights as citizens of the State of Israel, though I imagine even that would be a long struggle (but if Israel remains a democracy, they stand a real chance to affect governance and bring about meaningful change for their people). I don't think a 2 state solution is viable for the improvised Palestinians with all the fragmentation of villages and cities in Judea and Samaria (unless the settlers pull out; unlikely) and the geographical isolation and irrelevance of Gaza.
> The logistic concept of destroying the buildings is removing places to hide when the ground forces move through the streets.
Looks like this will happen, but I am unsure what the end game for IDF is? Hamas have estimated 40K "fighters" (but lets face it, they're not really a match, they'll be slaughtered if not by the Army, by the Air force; it isn't a fair fight even if its urban war-fare), unless it involves murdering every male Gazan (because of course they're all Hamas) or force them into Egypt? The latter might come to pass if Israel doesn't back down from this war and the West continues to support it. May be that's one part of the answer to the Palestine question.
> How do you unwind that and make peace?
Tear up the farce that was the US-brokered Oslo Accords and the UK-brokered Mandate, and undo the partition. Offer a life of dignity, peace, prosperity, and purpose to peoples who are refugees in their own homeland. Making the Palestinians accept citizenship can be forced by the Arab League. Easier said than done, of course (:
Another way is to disperse the Arabs in to neighboring countries, which Israel is in a position to do (slowly with the West Bank, and swiftly with Gaza). Once that happens, it'll be interesting to watch just how long the Israeli right and far-right can continue to rely on antisemitism (https://www.972mag.com/antisemitism-israel-jews-ihra/) and the dreadful Holocaust to champion their causes (like building the Third Temple, for example). We at least know that the Germans would never ever question anything and can count on the French as well, but can we say the same for other nation states?
"...the struggle to put an end to the Wandering Jew, could not have as its result, the creation of the Wandering Arab."
> Hopefully, the Arab League can convince them one way or the other. I believe, by simply accepting the Israeli citizenship, ALL Palestinians stand a chance to fight it out politically, as otherwise, they're anyway "second-rate citizens", regardless of whether they're militant (Gaza) or not (the West Bank).
Israeli citizenship is the crux of the issue. Much of when we consider as the borders of Israel was annexed. That means the people who were there before got full citizenship and rights.
In 1967 when Israel occupied these additional territories they came with a vast number of Palestinians in them. Egypt didn't want Gaza back when a peace treaty was finally signed. Even now they won't let anyone in from Gaza. Jordan didn't want the west bank either.
Israel chose to form settlements to slowly grab land. This was in-part a strategic decision, especially in the west bank where the border is very narrow. This was a poor mistake that was actually started by Nobel Peace prize winner for the Oslo accord Shimon Peres. Yes. The liberals started the settlements.
This was criticized by some smart people at the time such as Yeshayahu Leibowitz who was a fascinating man that saw how occupying another people would destroy the country from within.
Israel specifically chose not to annex the west bank and gaza to avoid citizenship for millions of additional Palestinians. That would completely offset the balance of power in the country. It's just a fucked up scenario. The extreme right parts of the current government have an annexation plan that would not grant citizenship to the Palestinian people effectively becoming an apartheid state officially. Most of the country is against it but I think a lot of the current events are part of their plan.
> > They hope this will enrage the surrounding Arab countries enough to trigger an all out regional holy war for the destruction of Israel.
>
> The powers-that-be, surely aren't that naive given the unconditional support Israel has always had from Europe and the Americas. ALL of their Arab neighbors are in no economic position to wage a war, even if there's political will. But they still went ahead with this despicable plan anyway... I am lost, really.
They did that in the past. In 1973 they nearly wiped out Israel and no one sent troops. Arguably Nixon saved Israel through weapon shipments. But up until now it was one of the deadliest wars in our history. Israel survived by dumb luck to a remarkable extent.
Looking at Ukraine, you fight your wars alone. Support is all good but despite the attack western countries kept buying Russian gas. That fear is very real. Imagine countries cutting off oil to the west if they help Israel...
> Not terrorism when people in uniform do it ;)
Yes. But to be fair Israel does have some cases where investigation resulted in surprising outcomes. E.g. a couple of years ago a terrorist (real one) was shot while trying to stab a soldier. He wasn't dead, just lying down neutralized. A soldier took his weapon and killed him.
That soldier stood trial and went to jail despite the right-wing going apeshit over this...
> From Israeli (tech) twitter, the sentiment I get is... all of Gaza is enemy, and couldn't care less if IDF nakba'd them a bit more in to Sinai.
Yes. I'm afraid this is pretty terrible in the news comment section too.
A lot of this is due to a misconception about the Palestinians and gaza residents. During the day of the attack one of my spouses students was in a safe root with her kids corresponding with us. Amazingly they all survived (house burned down but considering literally half of their village died... that's good). There was no news so we went on Instagram and looked at their hashtags. The videos published and cheered by the Hamas supporters were just horrible. It's hard to think about the human side.
We all know people and lost people. I was looking at John Oliver today and he showed a clip I didn't see here about a young guy who lost his brother. He was specifically talking about how his brother wouldn't want innocent Palestinians hurt.
The problem is we don't see those things here... When I was a kid they took us to a holocaust museum and showed us what people wrote on the walls in death camps. That fucks up kids minds. It's all cries for vengeance. Right now the media is pumping out every demonstration and every anti-semantic sentiment, this creates a "we don't have anywhere else to go" mentality. A persecution complex that weighs heavily on everyone here. All of these things come together. Even when we see the innocent victims, the blame goes to the Hamas. That's partially true (obviously), but it's disheartening.
Another thing that wasn't really reported here is the low support for the Hamas. People think that the Hamas won an election. They got 40% of the votes and even then the vast majority were in favor of peace. Yet, that latter part is missed. People justify violence because there's an assumption that the majority in Gaza chose violence and then celebrated in the streets when it happened.
> if Israel remains a democracy
I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles...
> Hamas have estimated 40K "fighters" (but lets face it, they're not really a match, they'll be slaughtered if not by the Army
If you have no morals and 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years. Look at the much larger US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. Finding them is a needle in a haystack.
> Tear up the farce that was the US-brokered Oslo Accords and the UK-brokered Mandate, and undo the partition. Offer a life of dignity, peace, prosperity, and purpose to peoples who consider themselves refugees in their own homeland. Making the Palestinians accept citizenship can be forced by the Arab League. Easier said than done, of course (:
That is something no one wants. It will be a disaster.
Israel is a liberal democracy. We have things such as gay rights, women's rights, etc. Even with our religious factions this is sometimes a problem. Unfortunately, there's a lot in common between religions in that sense. It will send us back to a point we can't get beyond.
That's if we're actually able to stop the terrorists. To do this we would need to remove the walls. That means we will go back to suicide bomber of the week. Three busses exploded in the street where I lived right next to my building. A coffee shop I was in was blown up. We can't go back to that, we need a border.
Thanks for your response. I am an arm-chair observer; I can only make broad-ranging assumptions. You know best.
> That means the people who were there before got full citizenship and rights.
Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example).
> ...how occupying another people would destroy the country from within.
Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned.
> That would completely offset the balance of power in the country. It's just a fucked up scenario.
To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up. There must be a path to assimilation, because how long does Israel otherwise continue to supress 5 million strong populace without having an eventual intention of removing them for their lands/islands (or worse, this Earth)? Painting such broad strokes (all Palestinians want is to exterminate Jews) is part of the problem (may be the Gazan kids, if given a choice, would aspire to study at Technion, participate in the booming Israeli cybersecurity scene in Herzlia... over being under constant surveillance of Israeli drones and pray that autonomous weapons don't misfire every time they're at a crossing).
> They did that in the past. In 1973 they nearly wiped out Israel and no one sent troops... Imagine countries cutting off oil to the west if they help Israel...
In all honesty, most Arab countries that matter have been run in to the ground by Dictators (Egypt) or solely serve their Emirs (UAE, Saudia, Qatar). Some only have a puppet military (Kuwait, Bahrain). I don't expect it to happen again. The wars in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan reaffirmed that there's no such thing as ummah, that these multiple countries are not a single military bloc. Hamas should know that no one's coming for them when US gets involved (which it did, as expected): and especially after what happened in 2014.
> It's hard to think about the human side.
True. Entire generations lost to this. Like the Atheist he was, Moshe Dayan thought collective punishment was an effective way to tame the Fidayeen (terrorists, as one might call them today), and the Israelis, it seems, have never come out of that mode, but in fact have doubled down on it. And the cycle keeps repeating. The nakba, the Oslo Accords, the Gazan disengagement didn't break it. If it continues, there's never going to come a time this human side emerges, on either side of the fence, until there's fence no more (or no Palestines any more).
I just happen to read first-hand account of an Afghani-British author traveling around in Gaza in 2008 (https://twitter.com/nadeneghouri/status/1713120289213845671), and she says PTSD, low life expectancy, and poverty is rife through the populace. They deserve better than this (unless of course one thinks that Nadene is spreading propaganda for Hamas).
> Right now the media is pumping out every demonstration and every anti-semantic sentiment, this creates a "we don't have anywhere else to go" mentality.
Consent must be manufactured some how. All too predictable, but disheartening to see many of my heroes go genocidal on (tech) twitter. As a Shia' (Palestine is Sunni), I couldn't hold my tears reading the tweets they liked or reposted. As an aside, some of these same folks are working towards building an AGI.
> I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles...
Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support?
> 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years...
Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids (a million of them displaced in a week already), and if Hamas proactively gives up arms without getting anything substantial in return (not mockery-making lip-service like the Accords; but something like ending apartheid and going back to the 1948/67 borders or grant the right to citizenship).
> Israel is a liberal democracy. We have things such as gay rights, women's rights, etc.
It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem? I think this is a secondary concern, because it doesn't excuse the existence of an apartheid state in its lieu. Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too.
> Even with our religious factions this is sometimes a problem.
Palestinians or not, as has happened with other Islamic states, in the long run, I can see Israel struggling to hold on to its liberal values for this very reason. I am not a prophet, but there exist folks who believe in such prophecies.
> It will send us back to a point we can't get beyond.
I agree it is a pandora's box, but 75 years of hurt must be enough to try and open it? EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders. If I was an Israeli, and I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage, I would rather we continued to invest in lasers, and robots, and other utopian defense systems to permanently trap these people over trusting them. And that sucks, but I guess it keeps the Holy Land and its LGBTQ+ supporting democracy mostly "untouched", for the time being.
> Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example).
Yes. On the other hand there's the story of the residence of Haifa where the local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay. To this day it's an integrated city.
I was mostly talking about the annexation of the territories. Israel did annex the Golan Heights after the 67 war since its population is relatively small.
> Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned.
I think the original Oslo accord was planned to work for both sides. What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace".
> To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up.
I agree and many of the Palestinians I know are in the tech industry. I think education and a booming middle class will help.
Unfortunately, as they are now this is too far off. In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative. There's a lot of seriously crazy people there. That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated.
> > I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles...
> Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support?
The prime minister has been under indictment for a while now. He is a terrible demagogue. The worst kind. He used the extreme far right to take over the government and is slowly dismantling the checks and balances over the democracy.
This caught him in the middle of that. I do believe he actually planned for this to happen, he just didn't realize how terrible it would be. Typically, right-wing leaders use strife to strengthen their position and attack dissent. It's already something his people are doing by blaming the people who demonstrated against him, claiming we weakened the country...
I think he will assume emergency powers and will use them to circumvent democracy. There are already signs e.g. a recent attempt to curtail free speech etc.
> > 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years...
> Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids
Yes. One positive note that came out the other day was that the military showed off its situation room where they showed a system that helps them track the population via cell phone broadcasts. Not accurate but that gives them a sense of where the population is. They apparently use this to aim bombings into areas that aren't populated.
It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact.
> It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem?
The Palestinians aren't a part of Israel. So yes.
> Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too.
This is the exact problem. Israeli governments wanted the control but didn't want the annexation which would reduce the Jewish majority.
To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt. Since Arafat there has been no singular leader who can demonstrate control/unity. Even he was pretty problematic.
Most Israelis look at this as: we tried to give them a country and they kept sending suicide bombers/rockets. This is a bit distorted since it looks at the Palestinian people as a single mass. The problem is their lack of leadership. The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership.
> EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders.
The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity.
I don't think we can culturally assimilate. Even within the current Arab population in Israel we see things like violence towards women (honor killings) etc. It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift.
> I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage
I think the right thing is separate states. Historically, forcing unification created strife and violence. But I do think Israel has a duty and an interest in the success of the Palestinian people.
If they will have a thriving middle class and good education they will be less likely to seek violence. I hope the US will demand something like the Marshal plan, to rebuild Gaza but also help structure it. I don't know if this will work though. They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace".
True. I imagine Israeli making a farce of this well-meaning peace treaty (more so in Hebron and Jerusalem) is why it is hard for Palestine to trust Israel on any more peace-keeping measures.
> ...local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay.
I think Israelis should work towards a policy that, for once, favours the Palestines (but unfortunately, the incentives have never been there as Israel effectively has won every battle and war).
> In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative.
I live in a country where conservatives and liberals co-exist just fine. Israel's biggest ally is a country that has survived just fine. I understand the fear however.
> There's a lot of seriously crazy people there.
The Oleh doesn't discriminate between orthodox and non-observing Jews? Not saying the Orthodox are "crazy", but unlikely they support, for instance, a yearly pride parade at the Western Wall.
> That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated.
I believe, they just don't trust Israel. There are scores of refugees in Lebanon and Jordan who aren't allowed to return. Israel is as much Levantine as Jordan and Lebanon, while I'd argue, Egypt isn't.
> To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt.
Yep: So, just Israel, and the Israeli citizens of Palestine. Or: A federal government can be worked out? But there's nothing I feel (other than the situation like in 1973) that would bring the Israeli government to this compromise.
> The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership.
What's their end-goal, though? imo, this goal should inform the International support (for or against) Israeli aggression (wars, settlements, discrimination, barriers, etc) against these stateless people. And if this goal is henious, then it behooves Israeli liberals to speak up, because right now, everyone else who does is being cancelled in the name of crimes the Axis power were party to.
> It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact.
I can see why that is okay with the Israelis (large-scale surveillance, using autonomous weapons are also okay when it comes to Palestinians), but I also see de-humanization, which is what worries me more than anything else.
> The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity.
Point.
> I don't think we can culturally assimilate.
btw, I don't see any resemblance between the Turkic and the Celtic peoples, or the Iberian and the Slavic peoples, or the Scandinavians and the Greeks. So differences do need to be put aside (:
> It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift.
Another reason why I think that assimilation instead of alienation with Israelis is the best way forward for the Palestine people.
> They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Those are massive territories unlike Gaza and WB. Hopefully, long-term view prevails, despite the designs of the military (or, if one prefers: terrorists) on both sides. You pointed out that PLO already gave up arms in good faith... and it is most likely the militant wing of Hamas wouldn't exist post this war... A chance (again) for Israel to be as benevolent as it can muster up to be and take drastic (not comprised) measures towards peace. A man can dream.
> I live in a country where conservatives and liberals co-exist just fine. Israel's biggest ally is a country that has survived just fine. I understand the fear however.
There used to be consensus here too. After the 6 day war the heads of local Arab municipalities wrote letters to the president congratulating Israel on its victory. The concept of co-existence was something that was promoted and people believed in it.
Unfortunately, this eroded away with the occupation. Most of us don't remember a time of co-existence.
Looking at countries like the USA it seems that the far right has gone completely haywire thanks in large part to social media that pushes to the extremes.
> > The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership.
>
> What's their end-goal, though?
This varies based on the group. A lot of this is just reactionary. There's an attack on Israeli settlements, so we'll build even more settlements to "show them"... That's insane and dates back to the father of Israels right wing Jabotinsky who said that the conflict can only be resolved when Israel is so strong that no thought of taking it down can ever cross the minds of its enemies. He defined it as a wall of strength if I remember correctly.
That's nonsense obviously. People aren't homogeneous and empires fall. But that dogma still exists in the right.
The settlers are 90% religious. Heavily so. They are the crux of the problem here. Before these attacks an internal conflict was brewing in Israel where the three factions of Israeli life were coming undone. We have many factions but the 3 I'm talking about are:
* Secular - Israel is one of the most secular countries on earth
* Religious right - typically settlers but they live all over
* Hasidic jews - they are tribal and don't really care about any of this. But they have a long standing deal with the right and use it to extort government funds.
The moderate/liberal element has grown tired by the robbery conducted by the hasidic jews and the fact that religious settlers are forcing us into redundant conflicts with the Palestinians. Many said they will refuse to serve in the territories if they're called to duty. Pilots in the IDF resigned from active duty etc.
Palestinian leaders used to joke in the past that the conflict is the only thing keeping Israel together. If they left the Jews alone they would kill each other. This seems pretty accurate. Once this happened everyone who quit showed up in bases and signed up. Even if they disagree with the cause nothing unifies more than a common enemy.
This is all about religion in both sides. Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists. There's no "end game" because they are just f*ing crazy.
Notice that there are the crazier Nazi level players. Historically, these parties were illegal in Israel because they were considered racist. In the last election Bibi made sure they get legalized to leverage their power. I hope a lot of the people who voted for them don't really realize what they are. They don't yell "death to Arabs" or anything like that publicly, so people can delude themselves. But the history of these parties and the subtext is clear to those who pay attention.
> then it behooves Israeli liberals to speak up
Israeli liberals speak up a lot. There are amazing organizations like Betselem (in image) or brothers in arms. They provide testimonials and visual evidence of the crimes in occupation. In Israeli society they are viewed as bleeding heart liberals who are disconnected from the reality of "our enemy".
Organizations like BDS which tries to blacklist Israel end up even worse. It feeds into the "everyone is against us" mentality. The fact that the organization includes key members with terrorism association further cements that notion.
> btw, I don't see any resemblance between the Turkic and the Celtic peoples,
Cypress is an example of such friction. There are many cultural clashes through
Europe between immigrants and whites. This triggered a rise in white nationalism and triggered things like Brexit (also partially against Polish immigration).
We haven't assimilated the current Arab population. There are many problems across the board. There aren't many things on which we have a wide consensus here across the board but this is one them. Both Palestinians and Israelis aren't for this in very large numbers.
> > They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.
>
> Those are massive territories unlike Gaza and WB.
Yes. That does give me a bit of hope. But the problem is more cultural, not just peacemaking. There's deep rooted religion and also historic corruption. Getting the communities to "buy into" a cultural shift would be hard.
> Unfortunately, this eroded away with the occupation. Most of us don't remember a time of co-existence.
Hebron has proven that much.
> The moderate/liberal element has grown tired by the robbery conducted by the hasidic jews and the fact that religious settlers are forcing us into redundant conflicts with the Palestinians
Sad that this in turn seeds more divide.
> There's an attack on Israeli settlements, so we'll build even more settlements to "show them"
I saw on Israeli twitter (https://twitter.com/EliramE/status/1711747425398919667) from someone claiming to be "friends with many Arabs" that the Palestine people wouldn't sell their land even when offered millions of dollars (I presume, such deals are the norm for East Jerusalem?). That's a level of resolve I have not known. So, I can see where the "teach them" part comes from: displacement as a means of shame for the Palestine people seems like a valid view.
> Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists.
Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too?
> They don't yell "death to Arabs" or anything like that publicly
After the deplorable massacre on 7th, it seems like (from observing Israeli tech twitter) that there is prevalence of Islamophobia (ex: https://archive.is/9PV2e) possibly amongst moderates (and liberals alike)? All in the open, for now at least, while emotions run high (of course, antisemitism is rife within Muslims when it comes to this conflict, but even folks who aren't, are generally very angry at Israel continuing to move the Immovable Ladder in Jerusalem, in Hebron, in Judea, in Samaria with every passing day).
> Notice that there are the crazier Nazi level players.
Sigh. Such irony just writes itself.
> Israeli liberals speak up a lot.
Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view.
> Organizations like BDS which tries to blacklist Israel end up even worse.
Social Media is making it even more worse. In fact, I am terrified of liking a wrong tweet, or writing something stupid here... What a time to be alive where anyone can get cancelled.
> Both Palestinians and Israelis aren't for this in very large numbers.
This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair.
> Getting the communities to "buy into" a cultural shift would be hard.
I guess, the current brouhaha in the Arab world rallying around (dubious) hospital bombing (most likely planted by Hamas) should inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict it doesn't matter who's righteous / evil anymore (given years of misgivings and mutual distrust). Manufacturing consent from the West matters not if there is no appetite for a multi-front war.
Gone are the days when celebrities and prominent political figure heads would "sign a document" in show of support and everyone in their sphere of influence would rally behind them. With the rise of influencers (and disinformation factories), this tactic is done for, for worse or for good. I think had the Israelis waged a "smaller war" (like in 2014), they'd not have triggered such attention. And they can count on getting away with displacement, discrimination, and siege too, like forever. In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine.
> > Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists.
> Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too?
This is problematic. Over the past couple of decades the religious right became more dominant in Israeli society. We call them the knitted yamaka's since that's their signature head wear.
They slowly worked their way into the IDF as liberals were growing tired and reduced their service due to the long occupation which is abhorrent to most of us.
Still, it's an Army. You can't choose your deployment and you can get placed in Hebron even if you think Jews have no right to be there. You must follow these orders since they aren't illegal. That's where the gray area comes in. Technically, the army is there to keep the peace. Realistically I've seen videos where settlers purposely taunt Palestinians next to soldiers knowing that if push comes to shove a soldier will ultimately pick their side. This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable.
> that there is prevalence of Islamophobia
Yes. The Hamas is calling for a common uprising. Arab citizens have many fair grievances but most of them don't want violence. OTOH there are terrible cases there. An Arab bicycle shop owner donated bicycles for Jewish children who survived that massacre. His reward was that his neighbor torched his store...
So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful.
> Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view.
It's not a non-violent view for most. There are pacifists but they are rare. It's about a separation between the actual enemy and the people who might not like Israel, but aren't an enemy.
> This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair.
Every time settlements were cleared it turned into a clusterfuck. Soldiers were attacked violently etc. I get the trauma of being ripped from your home... But you can't attack your own army.
The supreme court provided increased compensation in the case of settlers who were removed from Gaza. But it's not about the money for these people. It's an ideal and that's something far more scary.
> inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict
This feeds into the "we're alone in this" mentality and the need to "show strength". I don't think there's a logical and sensible argument to be made. I read a great piece in the local paper where the author analyzed the problematic nature of "the day after Hamas". The comments were mostly insulting to him and very militant.
I find that when I talk to people individually most of them have the capacity to understand the nuance of the situation. But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome.
> In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine.
This is a scary dystopian future. You asked about what "their" end goal is, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks like that. I hope we can avoid that by kicking out Netanyahu and his cronies but this has proven more difficult than one would imagine.
It beehoves the Palestines to build a strong military (which they can't without a State) and not hide like cowards lacking any code of ethics or morality. Is it correct to say Israel won't like that, because they prefer Hamas/Hizb-style millitia and collective punishment over a recognised military (and not a puppet "security force" like the NSF)? If true, do Israelis realise this and despite the government for it?
> This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable.
I've seen videos, yeah. Not pretty at all. The Iron Wall is a great deterrence, but rebels would always want to overcome it in an act of defiance, no matter the cost. And when they do, the terror they unleash is not justifiable by any means, but all too predictable, nevertheless. That the rebels who are (or consider themselves) victims of "slow terror" (of racist elements of the IDF) would inflict more terror is so ironic, that I feel I can almost understand why the Israeli appartus acts ruthlessly (some might say, maniacal) like it does in face of whatever it perceives to be antisemitism (given the woe it wrought on them at the hands of the Europeans; though, now the wrath has been successfully teleported onto the muslims of the Levant).
> So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful.
Normalisation efforts are a great starting point. I'm surprised Saudia is so further ahead in that process. That is a watershed moment regardless of the plight of Palestine. Hopefully, we see more of it. Though, I think the US military's overbearing reach in the region (in Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt) is doing more harm than good, since as far as the Palestine is concerned, it is a religious issue that will not go away, even if Palestine goes away. Speaking as a Muslim, Al Quds (Old Jerusalem), Al Majdal (in Ashkelon), and Hebron will always remind us of what once was. Time will tell. May be time will heal all wounds. There just so much agony here for what's a small parcel of land. Albeit, important land to both the peoples. Thank Abraham's God, unlike Jesus (SA), Muhammad (SA) wasn't born in that same parcel of land.
> There are pacifists but they are rare.
Norman Finkelstein, a very controversial figure, said in a talk at University of Waterloo (2008) that the issue of Palestine is a simple one but that the US had made it complicated for whatever it stands to gain (I wonder what that is, I have no clue). Finkelstein says, most of the world (via UN) agrees that Israel should rapidly work towards as 2 state solution, when only US doesn't and it consistently vetos most resolutions (some 280+ that have been brought against Israel, which is an astoundingly high number). What do you make of this stance (which comes from someone who's considered 'an enemy of Israel').
> It's an ideal and that's something far more scary.
Well, Israel eventually split from Judea... Is that the kind of ideal settlers harbour long term?
> But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome.
The doxxing of people and getting them fired for what they consider to be antisemitism or Nazi-like behaviour makes me so fearful. I can almost describe as being terrorized to even talk about this topic, lest I say something stupid (I'm being very careful what I'm writing here, but I know I might have slipped, because it is possible to bad faith argue everything one doesn't agree with). These initiatives, from what I can tell, have backing from some very influential, well connected, and wealthy people.
Another theme I see on the Israeli tech Twitter, is the insistence on convincing the American public about the war. Not sure if propoganda is the right term, but it is pretty close to it. The constant messaging around "the West is next", "our 9/11", "Hamas is ISIS" (which aren't wrong), and the subtle flaring up of Islamophobia ("jihadi death cult", "culture of darkness", "barbaric people"), or the exploitation of Western guilt ("more Jews killed since the Shoah", "never again", "free Palestine = extermination of Jews") is a bit unnerving to watch. I'm sure the Jewish people think it is fully warranted (I wouldn't know, not many groups were subject to 2000 years of persecution), but it is a bit jarring (and at times seems hysterical) when you're in their cross hairs. This time, it is the entire muslim population that is, apparently.
Also, some folks on the Israeli tech Twitter are quite simply and incomprehensibly incapable of viewing the conditions in Gaza without any semblance of empathy or sympathy. I consider tech to be fairly liberal and left leaning and so this totally caught me totally off-guard the first few days. I understand the rage, but I'm mostly shocked by the kind of views they ascribe to in light of extracting vengeance.
> This is a scary dystopian future.
If so, I wonder why the US supports such a future unconditionally? On the other hand, the political and civil unrest in the Middle East for what happens if they pull support, is also quite unimaginable. May be China can step in with fresh ideas (though, Israel might say they're antisemites).
> It beehoves the Palestines to build a strong military (which they can't without a State) and not hide like cowards lacking any code of ethics or morality. Is it correct to say Israel won't like that, because they prefer Hamas/Hizb-style millitia and collective punishment over a recognised military (and not a puppet "security force" like the NSF)? If true, do Israelis realise this and despite the government for it?
Since the entire region is very small there is a concern about a standing army literally at the doorstep. I don't think there's a preference for millitia but one of the rallying cries of the right is: "why did you give them guns". This refers to the fact that the Oslo accord provided the Palestinian police with guns. Then when things soured these weapons were used against Israelis.
They have a fantasy of a demilitarized autonomy, I honestly don't have a good answer here.
> Normalisation efforts are a great starting point.
The right was trying to push for peace with Saudi Arabia as a way to pressure the Palestinian leadership into a deal on Israels terms. I don't think that would have worked. Ideally, these holy areas should be open to everyone. Israels tourism numbers are amazingly low considering everything it has to offer. I know there's tourism from Jordan, UAE, etc.
But this will require a tectonic shift in mindset. The problem is that it's really hard to root out extremists.
> Norman Finkelstein, a very controversial figure, said in a talk at University of Waterloo (2008) that the issue of Palestine is a simple one but that the US had made it complicated for whatever it stands to gain (I wonder what that is, I have no clue). Finkelstein says, most of the world (via UN) agrees that Israel should rapidly work towards as 2 state solution, when only US doesn't and it consistently vetos most resolutions (some 280+ that have been brought against Israel, which is an astoundingly high number). What do you make of this stance (which comes from someone who's considered 'an enemy of Israel').
I 100% agree with the two state solution as did most Israelis in the past when it was surveyed. Not sure if this is still true. I think the solution is simple, but there's a lot of nuance which is where the main problems occur. There's also execution of a solution which is MUCH harder, e.g. clearing settlements, etc.
The vetos in the UN are related to resolutions brought about by Arab countries who have more influence in the UN due to their numbers. This is mostly the US defending Israel against a stacked playing field. Some of that is enablement but if it wasn't for the US there would be no moderation. A lot of the deals and holding back is due to US pressure.
> Well, Israel eventually split from Judea... Is that the kind of ideal settlers harbour long term?
A lot of people are talking about this since the split between right and left seems to be very clear here. E.g. Tel Aviv is as liberal as can be... It's often referred to as Tel Aviv state because it is so different in its views. Realistically, this is probably not doable.
> Another theme I see on the Israeli tech Twitter, is the insistence on convincing the American public about the war. Not sure if propoganda is the right term, but it is pretty close to it.
A recent set of letters from Harvard and other universities student bodies really shook up the local press. I Get that. They wrote that Israel is 100% to blame for everything even the attack on its own people. That is delusional and scary.
There's concern that Israel will find itself isolated again if it lets such rhetoric slide.
> at times seems hysterical
I was reading about a family of 3. The father and mother were unarmed and shot as part of the attack. The Hamas kidnapped the 3 year old to Gaza and the two other kids survived by hiding under their mothers body for 7 hours. Children hiding under bodies to survive is very reminiscent of the holocaust survivor stories. It's about as triggering as can be.
The Hamas reminded Israelis just how vulnerable Israel is. I think the hysteria is partially warranted.
> conditions in Gaza without any semblance of empathy or sympathy
This is "what aboutism" at its worse. I think they are doing a disservice to their country.
> > This is a scary dystopian future.
>
> If so, I wonder why the US supports such a future unconditionally?
They don't. Biden is actually pushing to something that would resemble a Marshal plan for Gaza with UN rule. That's smart, we're lucky that he's in-charge and not Trump or someone else. He understands the nuances of this situation better than most.
China is terrible, it made the worst communication mistakes with Israel when this whole thing started. They don't have the capability of nuance or diplomacy that the US has.
> They have a fantasy of a demilitarized autonomy, I honestly don't have a good answer here.
If I am being Machiavellian, I can see why ethnic cleansing might be an eventual option when push comes to shove, while morphing the well-meaning Oslo Accords into apartheid (some object to use of this term, I am none the wiser) is the ongoing preference.
> I don't think there's a preference for millitia ... There's also execution of a solution which is MUCH harder, e.g. clearing settlements, etc.
This then seems like a federated government with two sets of laws and two power centers (like the one proposed to prevent the partition of British India) might be probable after a sustained period of peace, with free movement of goods and people; especially since going back to 1967 borders is non-workable to make way for a 2-state solution, on top of the already non-negotiable (from Israel's pov) Right to Return for the Arab refugees in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.
> The problem is that it's really hard to root out extremists.
Such tragic events are as much a chance for the centre / left to root out far-right and far-left as they're for them to cement their political ideology. I genuinely hope the US and the UK push the Israeli Government to abandon this concept of "security state" (as some put it) and work towards equal rights of the Palestine people (ie, make it part of the constitution). Some might say that it is an unfair outcome for Israel, but frankly, there's nothing that's been fair in this overwhelmingly one-sided conflict. Hopefully, the Arab League can offer wholesale normalization in exchange (not sure about Syria re: Golan Heights and other proxies of Iran). It'll be nice to see what peaceful Middle East looks like, for once.
> The vetos in the UN are related to resolutions brought about by Arab countries who have more influence in the UN due to their numbers.
Geo-politics is one way to look at it; another way is the human rights violations as reported by independent bodies (Amnesty, HRW, and even B'Tselem) which can't be merely dismissed as agenda of the Arab states? As one example: The 2006 Lebanon War, in particular, had heavy Lebanese civilian casualties (2 town centers leveled, for all intents and purposes, which still don't show much signs of infrastructure recovery), and another report claiming that Israel launched 5million mortars into Southern Lebanon after a cease fire was agreed (and 1 million of it remained unexploded). I am in the camp that believes that this recklessness is due to the impunity US affords Israel, which invariably, makes me very apprehensive of the US policing the region in general, even though, I genuinely think the US has much better ideals than most other Arab countries (not a high bar).
> They wrote that Israel is 100% to blame for everything even the attack on its own people. That is delusional and scary.
The critics (not me) come from a place where they say though Hamas violently lashes out for the sole purpose of spreading terror, their previous offers for a long truce (hudna; apparently accepted by the IDF but denied by the Israeli Government) and attempt at non-violent protests (The Great March of 2018) against the siege hasn't worked, as reportedly IDF maimed and killed 200+ Gazans.
Norman Finkelstein says that as the reports of 7 Oct were coming out, it wasn't clear just what had happened, and that the left were wrong to put out statements in support of them.
Then, he posits the notorious Mandela quip ("One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"; I don't ascribe to it, because I haven't personally been subject to apartheid, but my community, not too dissimilar to the Druze, has been in 12th to 17th centuries in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, and Yemen; and thereafter across most of the British Empire) applies to Hamas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m36CUGA1Ucw&t=2700); and that while their terrorist acts are reprehensible as a matter of fact (innocent lives lost), the moral judgement is however harder to pass (ex: Nat Turner's rebellion against slavery in the US), given Israel's role in inciting / incentivizing such a response (again, not my view).
> There's concern that Israel will find itself isolated again if it lets such rhetoric slide.
Understandable, but their response has been, from what I can tell, to incite Islamophobia. Remind the West that this is "a clash of civilizations". I'd rather relinquish all of Levant to Israel to have it stopped, because the previous wave wasn't at all easy.
> It's about as triggering as can be.
Sigh. Not to downplay or compare, but such triggers (Shoah v Nakba) exist on both sides, and it seems limitless, this cycle of anguish.
> Biden is actually pushing to something that would resemble a Marshal plan for Gaza with UN rule.
I predict a month or two from now, there will come a point when other (uninvolved) populace (in the West, even if not in the Arab world) will simply exhaust their emotional capacity to follow the conflict. It'll be interesting to see how things proceed then. I instead hope for war/crime trials (of those responsible on both sides), long-term truce, and expediting a 2-state plan (either Palestine as a protectorate / federate (without 1967 borders) enshrined in the Israeli constitution, or a sovereign republic (w/ 1967).
> They don't have the capability of nuance or diplomacy that the US has.
Don't think the Arab states trust the US... and I'd argue that indulging the nuances has what's led us to a complicated situation. I am not an expert, but in my own naive way, I think some hefty compromises are a way forward unless Israel believes it can remain a "security state" forever, and wait out a total Palestine defeat (as in Arabs leaving voluntarily).
(ps sincere apologies if any of my replies have been inconsiderate / tone-deaf)
I think the right to return is a red herring. Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. But where will they live? The area is tiny to begin with. These aren't rich people who have the ability to live anywhere.
I think this can be solved with a reparations settlement. It would be hard since records from the 40s would be problematic by now. Names changed, areas switched hands. But that's probably not the hardest problem here.
Jerusalem has always been a problem. I don't have an easy answer about that. Israelis won't budge on that due to the logistics of city division.
> another way is the human rights violations as reported by independent bodies (Amnesty, HRW, and even B'Tselem) which can't be merely dismissed as agenda of the Arab states?
Those I trust. Mostly B'Tselem who actually do the legwork here. Unfortunately, the UN includes countries like UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with...
> Then, he posits the notorious Mandela quip
The problem we have here is one of religion. It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization. Although, I do get the distaste towards the current Israeli government and its policies. I share it to a great extent.
> Understandable, but their response has been, from what I can tell, to incite Islamophobia. Remind the West that this is "a clash of civilizations". I'd rather relinquish all of Levant to Israel to have it stopped, because the previous wave wasn't at all easy.
Yep. Israel has the WORST government in its history. Incompetent. Corrupt. Cowardly and evil. Luckily Biden is smart and experienced enough to gently pull the strings and manipulate the situation.
> Sigh. Not to downplay or compare, but such triggers (Shoah v Nakba) exist on both sides, and it seems limitless, this cycle of anguish.
When I was 17 just before the Oslo accord I went on a trip to Austria with a group of Jewish and Palestinian youths. We had this "peace forum" where we talked and the Austrian government used that to sort of "shame the adults". Sort of: if kids can reach an agreement, then you can too.
As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict. I think the right education, trips like that etc. can really make a difference in the long run. But it requires will on both sides to sit down and talk. Unfortunately, the only people who are willing to sit down and talk are the people who are moderate to begin with.
The lunatics remain stupid and ignorant. During the Oslo bombings I was taking a cab and the driver was bemoaning "these Arabs". "They're the only people who do stuff like suicide bombings, it's barbaric".
I explained that Bar Cochva was an inspiration to a lot of that. Also mentioned Trumpeldor (who famously said "it's good to die for our country"), Japanese Kamikaze pilots etc. He wasn't pleased...
> Don't think the Arab states trust the US...
This is very true. Trump did tremendous damage there and the fact that Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse.
> I think some hefty compromises are a way forward unless Israel believes it can remain a "security state" forever, and wait out a total Palestine defeat (as in Arabs leaving voluntarily).
I think that's what Biden is pushing for. He's supporting Israel seemingly with no strings attached but it's obvious there are strings. Moderation in the combat is one of them. Clear and defined goals is another.
> (ps sincere apologies if any of my replies have been inconsiderate / tone-deaf)
No. You're good. I think a lot of the problems we see in the middle east is due to ignorance and lack of communication.
I can see why that is; otoh a few Palestinians I've spoken to feel a deep longing for the farms and the lands they lost. This impasse must inform them that their violent struggle (Fidayeen etc) did more harm than good. So much so that, their non-violent struggle is also met with violence. A first step could be for the Israeli government to acknowledge that pain, even if they won't grant them their right (which, personally, I think they should on a case-by-case basis, like how the US hands Green Cards, for instance).
> Jerusalem has always been a problem.
Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too. The Ottomans established the status quo, but that's all gone. Perhaps, a new status quo can be agreed. Normalization efforts are a great start in that direction.
> UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with...
They even persecute us, so no objections to that (:
> It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization.
Not defending him, but to clarify, I believe, Finkelstein is left / far-left? And that he isn't approving of their terror, but he says he can't condemn them as well (which perhaps can be misconstrued as siding with them... very thin ice to stand on) as he sees Gaza as a concentration camp, and Hamas' attacks as a natural outcome of an oppressed people (not my view).
> As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict.
Yeah the peoples must be humanized in each others eyes: I see Israelis (in tech) latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. The pain and the suffering that can lead to such a world-view (on both the sides) is just unfathomable. May be, via education (like you say) and with time, this will go away.
> Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse.
Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Sunak's remarks still continue to be. As politicians, I think they understand better than most that the issue of Palestine is emotionally charged unlike any other (this has nothing to do with antisemistism like some claim, but a sense of injustice and loss of pride from being repeatedly trounced across decades in defeats), and equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world. I refuse to believe the policy makers are this out of touch, and so, the only other possible explanation is, they are out of their depth.
> Moderation in the combat is one of them.
Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The Palestinians aren't sufficiently protected. I don't have a good answer to what else the Israeli government could do, but some have suggested doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy (ex: after the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai, the worst in India's history but not at the scale of 7 Oct, by Pakistan-sponsored militants, India did nothing violent; though, granted Pakistan's nuclear deterrence also plays a role in this). In fact, despite the scale of Israeli response, there already exist vocal factions within the Arab world that vehemently condemn Hamas for summoning this war and unrest, and squarely blame them (not Israelis) for the plight of Gazans.
> Clear and defined goals is another.
The news has been that there isn't any apart from either driving civilians in to Sinai or destruction of Gaza in a bid to weed-out Hamas; both of which will destabilize the region. Even if there's a ceasefire tomorrow, the worrying part is, how many billions and years are needed for Gaza to even recover from this? There's also the psychological side for the 2million subject to this war. I stumbled upon a video of Israeli bombardment recently, and it truly seemed like apocalypse (https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541).
spare me the propaganda please, the same line has been repeated since Iraq war. And here we are 30 years later, were Biden says that he saw pictures of kids decapitated and hours later refuted by his own staff. There's pictures upon pictures of Gazan kids and infants being pulled out of rubble and not much acknowledgement of it.
> [...] and kidnapping civilians should be stark. Shame on you.
Don't mistake my comment for me actually defending Hamas and the atrocities last weekend. It was to point out that the IDF/Israeli govt didn't exactly descend from heaven and they are just as horrific morally.
> Unlike the Hamas Israel tried to have a peaceful solution multiple times. Including a Palestinian state.
Hamas is around 20 years old. Please take a look as to what has happened during the same period to the West Bank which is controlled by non-violent PLO. Armed settlers have taken over neighborhoods and Palestinians are left with no recourse.
> I understand that rage and I honestly understood the recent incursions in Jenin, they made sense. They focused on settlers and on the military.
The 2023 incursions in Jenin were offensives by the IDF and the Israeli Border Police. Unless you are talking about something else, please link it here as I wasn't able to find any Hamas or other Palestinian offensives this year in Jenin.
> The word genocide is problematic here. The IDF specifically issued a clearance warning indicating its targets in advance. That's not something you do if you plan to kill civilians.
No, you put them in a medieval style siege by cutting of water, electricity, food and any external aid. There's that interview with ex PM of Israel, Naftali Bennett, where he was asked about the Gazan kids in incubators and his reply was "Are you seriously asking me about Palestinian Civilians? What is wrong with you?" So, when Israeli officials ask for _half_ of Gaza to evacuate to the south, these 1.1 million people have nowhere to go. Atm, ~400k Gazans are displaced from their homes, how many of these were Hamas?
> Calling it ethnic cleansing is untrue at the moment. Even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't back that up.
Roughly 50% of Gaza's population is under 18. Its the result of decades of indiscriminate killing by the IDF. I wonder at what point of this conflict Israeli's realize that they are fighting a force of kids who grew up in the constant shelling of their homes. And this weeks bombing on civilian infrastructure in Gaza is only going to result in another battalion for Hamas in a decades time.
> Notice that even now the Hamas is still firing missiles onto Israel and I just walked out of a shelter...
I hope you and your loved ones are safe and make it out of this mess. I just want everyone to understand that on the other side of the wall there are families that are sitting in their apartments without protection from an American funded Iron Dome or bomb shelters, waiting to die out of no fault of their own. And for whatever reason people (politicians / journalists of countries that I am a citizen / generally a supporter of) think that Israel in its right to defend itself is justified in leveling Gaza.
> spare me the propaganda please, the same line has been repeated since Iraq war. And here we are 30 years later, were Biden says that he saw pictures of kids decapitated and hours later refuted by his own staff. There's pictures upon pictures of Gazan kids and infants being pulled out of rubble and not much acknowledgement of it.
There's plenty of acknowledgement of that. Notice that Israel threw more bombs than anyone ever did in a matter of days. Thousands of bombs. The Hamas historically always inflated numbers (as the Nazis did in Dresden by adding a zero). Even if you take their number as of yesterday of 1,500 for 6,000 bombs. That number shows a remarkable effort to avoid hitting civilians.
There are also many stories of staging photos on the Hamas side, putting a child within the rubble so you can pull them out later. I don't doubt kids were hurt and it's terrible, but children dying from bombing is something that happened in every war since the cannon. It isn't news and it isn't intentional.
> The 2023 incursions in Jenin were offensives by the IDF and the Israeli Border Police.
Yes. I think what Israel did in the territories is terrible. There's an uprising there that has left quite a few Israelis dead. Again, terrible. Lots of shootings at settlers. But I think that's a legitimate struggle.
> There's that interview with ex PM of Israel, Naftali Bennett
I didn't vote for him. I agree, and his comparison to Dresden is just stupid. Again, I think the bombings aren't doing Israel any good and aren't REALLY damaging to the Hamas. In fact, I think they wanted Israel to bomb them as it changes public opinion against Israel and forces the Palestinians in the street to side with Hamas.
I think PM Netanyahu is a useful idiot in service of Hamas.
People losing their home (temporarily) isn't genocide. It's a tragedy but it isn't genocide.
But the core of the issue is how the hell do you fight an enemy that intentionally hides within civilian population and sees it as his god given duty to sacrifice these civilians. This isn't hyperbole, they actually believe that by killing their own people as pawns they will guarantee them a place in heaven!
> Roughly 50% of Gaza's population is under 18. Its the result of decades of indiscriminate killing by the IDF.
That isn't true. It's a result of a fantastically high birthrate and disregard for life by the Hamas.
> I hope you and your loved ones are safe and make it out of this mess. I just want everyone to understand that on the other side of the wall there are families that are sitting in their apartments without protection from an American funded Iron Dome or bomb shelters, waiting to die out of no fault of their own. And for whatever reason people (politicians / journalists of countries that I am a citizen / generally a supporter of) think that Israel in its right to defend itself is justified in leveling Gaza.
I have friends on the other side of that wall. I care for them and don't want them to get hurt either. As I said, the mob mentality on both sides is high and that is the thing that has me stressed about this the most.
I'm old enough to remember a time before the Intefada in the 80s where we used to live side by side with Palestinians from the territories. I used to work side by side with a young Palestinian, a great guy. Younger Israelis and immigrants (who are many) don't have that experience because of the Intefada and the wall. Both sides only see each other through a barrel of a gun and have a problem of disassociation, they think of the other side as "them" instead of as people. Events like these further strengthen that terrible disconnect.
The people on the other side of the wall need help, we need to stop the Hamas who is killing them. But instead of doing that the Israeli government funded Hamas for years because our PM is a moron. We've demonstrated repeatedly trying to get him removed (he's also a criminal under multiple trials). But he won't budge. I think he knew this attack was coming and might be using it as an excuse to further subvert democracy.
That is not a straw man argument. If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative. Children were executed in cold blood. That's a fact. The method of execution is really irrelevant here.
It is a textbook example of a strawman. He is putting words in my mouth that I never said to debunk my post. That is exactly what strawman fallacy means. Lmao.
>If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative
Another strawman. I merely pointed out it was a hoax, as briefly and straightforwardly as possible. I didnt say anything about any "narrative" at all.
>The method of execution is really irrelevant here.
It is very relevant when it was explicitely stated. Falsehoods must be pointed out. Relentlessly.
>They published verified photos of dead and burnt babies.
This is irrelevant to the topic discussed which is "validity of the Israel's claim of decapitated babies". You entered this specific topic and keep derailing it with these claims that are unrelated to the original statement.
>You're grasping on literal straws.
Literal straws is what grows behind your house. Perhaps you meant figurative straws.
This is exactly my point. You're being purposely petty as if decapitation of a baby or mutilation with a knife are different. There are many lies perpetrated in the fog of war. But your choose to focus on the methodology of baby execution as the "hill to die on" in terms of "truth" is pretty f*ed up.
"If RealPage has caused a rise in prices, it's because it showed old assumptions are wrong."
Your assumption that RealPage (and other software) -powered market is a market is wrong. Its a near monopoly and thus the price is excessive. Everybody has to live somewhere, if you double the rent of (nearly) all flats, everybody will still be willing to pay that doubled price.
To simplify it: altough there are many landlords, they arent each others competitors thanks to RealPage. They are collectively one big landlord holding the city hostage.
> if you double the rent of (nearly) all flats, everybody will still be willing to pay that doubled price.
This just isn't true. Many people would move in together, many others would go somewhere cheaper. That would lead to vacant units and landlords would have to lower prices to fill them.
