I really wanted to love OSX, but never could. I run Linux + Windows on my Macbook Pro -- Linux is a better and more open *nix, and Windows is just way faster and more stable in general than anything else (at least that's my experience), especially when it comes to anything graphics intensive (graphics drivers are really-really bad on OSX). Obviously web devs see it in a different way, and I can understand that. But if you know Powershell well, then Windows can be quite convenient. For development my choice is either Windows + VS or Linux + whatever. OSX is a nice middle ground though, it's just not for me.
I feel the same way actually, but I realize that my opinion on this isn't mainstream. Using OS X has always been an exercise in frustration for me. Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals.
Ironically, the more that Windows tries to be like OS X the less I like it. Thankfully, it's still possible to turn much of that stuff off.
I don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way.
>Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals
Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. For me, the more I use OSX, the more I'm frustrated with Windows. The one thing I do miss from Windows is better full screen support. Yosemite kinda helped with that (but it's still kinda clunky).
Other than that, I feel like there's a little more logic behind OSX with common operations, off the top of my head:
Option/alt to modify existing commands. The keyboard kungfu on OSX seems easier on the hands, too, since the combos typically rely on thumb keys vs a Windows pinky reach of Ctrl. Especially noticeable because the thumbs seem pretty underutilized vs pinkies, which already have plenty of keyboard duties.
File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??")
Folder/file nav: unified drill down in the file browser (cmd+up/down to navigate levels, with the file level simply opening the file, vs arrow keys, then enter to open)
Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application)
*Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content.
Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time.
> don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way.
I actually meant the desktop parts, no metro. For example, the taskbar is becoming more dock-like in every release.
> Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious.
It's somewhat hard to nail down. I find it much more mouse heavy. I find the window management to be annoying; I prefer full-screen apps with dockable panels to the mess of random windows normally found in OS X apps. I definitely feel having one menu bar WAY at the top of a single screen to be insane. I'm sitting in front of 2 24" monitors kinda makes OS X seem a bit underwhelming. On Windows, I have two task bars showing different tasks for each window. Two start menus (thanks Classicshell) and my apps have their own menus.
It seems like the apps have a lot of style-over-substance going on. Code editors with pop-out drawers which are both stupid and a waste of pixels.
> File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??")
F2 works but I never use it. I always just click twice to rename.
> Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application)
Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue. Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times.
> Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content.
Yeah, you got me there. For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! I found nothing more annoying than having to move a window around to then resize it.
> Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time.
SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard!
>I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times.
Haha, I'm glad we can civilly hate each other's preferences. To me, repeating the menu strip for each window is a waste of real-estate, but i'm a huge desktop space whore. I don't need "File, Edit, etc" on every program window. I know it's there, so I prefer it to be in a common area. Actually, I find myself getting confused the other way around. In Windows, if I step away from my desk, and come back, it's not clear to me which program is currently active because they're all showing their menu bars just like all the other programs (now that we discuss it, I feel like the root of our different workflows has as lot to do with the fact that I prefer to autohide my taskbars). This combined with the unified window/program closing has lead to gnashing of teeth more than once.
>Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue.Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed.
I appreciate the shift with some programs, but it doesn't seem as prevalent as I feel it should be, or we're not talking about the same thing. IE and Office are definitely guilty of this. Ctrl+w your tabs enough, and it'll simply close out the program. Or if you choose to X out your windows via mouse, if it's the last window, it will exit out the program. "Window" and "program" seem to be synonymous, so this requires I do a time-wasting check whether it's the last instance or not. Whereas in OSX, exiting the program is a discrete cmd+q vs closing a window (cmd+w). As long as those two remain intertwined concepts in Windows, it's going to feel less logical to me (in my opinion of course).
So far, I feel pretty keyboard-warrior-y just as much as I was on Windows. Which probably comes back to workflows. As you pointed out, you use the mouse to rename files, whereas I don't. I figure if I'm renaming a file, I need to type a new name, so my hands can be in the classic "home" position instead of moving around to the mouse or F2.
I can see your point about the taskbar, but after a month of use (which admittedly was painful), I honestly stopped missing it. The OS X dock does show what apps are open as well with a lit up effect. Though in both OSes, I end up autohiding them. And worst case scenario, the OS X version of aero tab/Winkey+tab groups together all your active windows by program (though the feature kind of chugged when it first released, but I'd argue aero tab was pretty clunky on older machines when it first came out as well).
>For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner!
So true. And they finally ditched the bizarre "green" button behavior.
> Ha, looks like my opinions hurt someone's feelings and got downvoted. Meh.
Yeah, stupid, have an upvote!
> Haha, I'm glad we can civilly hate each other's preferences. To me, repeating the menu strip for each window is a waste of real-estate, but i'm a huge desktop space whore. I don't need "File, Edit, etc" on every program window.
Well a lot of programs are ditching having a menu bar at all. This Firefox window I'm typing this into is really minimal -- no menu at all. If you're a desktop space whore than this is better than both options. I feel like the Mac way makes sense when desktop space is at a premium (like with the original Mac) but I have more desktop space than I know what to do with!
> Actually, I find myself getting confused the other way around. In Windows, if I step away from my desk, and come back, it's not clear to me which program is currently active
That's a valid point. After getting distracted, I've typed into the wrong window in my multi-monitor desktop because the wrong app has focus. But I don't think I'd be any more likely to look in the very top left corner of one monitor to see which one is active either. In a single monitor situation, this is almost a non-issue.
> I feel like the root of our different workflows has as lot to do with the fact that I prefer to autohide my taskbars
Yeah, I don't autohide but I do make them smaller than the current Windows default.
> As long as those two remain intertwined concepts in Windows, it's going to feel less logical to me (in my opinion of course).
This is a totally valid point and I don't have a good argument against it. But I think it comes with the baggage of having that single top menu bar which I think is much less logical. But I'm not sure if it's possible to reconcile these things. I will say that Office has probably the worst window management of any application on Windows but thankfully I usually only have one document open at a time. Ironically, NextStep has menus in each app and this was removed when it became OS X to make the transition easier for users.
> So far, I feel pretty keyboard-warrior-y just as much as I was on Windows.
I'm actually more of a mouse person or perhaps more accurately a combo mouse/keyboard. But strangely enough, my file management workflow is weirdly hampered on OS X. I found a few apps that just wouldn't let me CTRL-C CTRL-V a file into them, for example. I'm willing to concede if I used nothing but the keyboard, the Finder might be better but in my usage I just find it frustrating.
Here are some more examples of OS X UI deficiencies compared to Windows:
- Keyboard acceleration for application menus is more consistent and robust under Windows. Press Alt + the underlined letter of any menu to activate it and then hunt around using the arrow keys. Press underlined letter of menu item to activate it. No memorizing arcane shortcuts.
- Windows' Taskbar is much, much more flexible than OS X's Dock because it does everything the Dock does in it's default mode and it's got other modes that the Dock does not such as having one "entry per window" instead of one "entry per application that displays a list of windows when clicked". I like entry per window mode. The Taskbar is also highly customizable via something like 7+ taskbar tweaker where you can make "taskbar entries" act like browser tabs (middle click to close). Apple never gives anyone access to the proper APIs to customize the Dock. Developers can't even change NSScreen.visibleFrame so even if you wanted to replace the Dock you couldn't do it properly and windows end up behind your replacement (a bug all dock replacement software shares).
- Apple seems to prefer buttons that have icons with no labels everywhere. Also, they seem to like little tiny buttons for things like Add/Delete an item in a list, where a Windows app would have a nice big button with an icon and a label. Windows is just more utilitarian over all and Microsoft generally seems to value function over style, which matches my own preferences.
- The Windows Explorer is much more flexible and extensible than the OS X Finder. Extending the Explorer context menu is a matter of course on Windows. There's a very robust API for it. Overall, the Finder is vastly inferior to Explorer which is also easier to navigate with a keyboard.
- Save/Open dialogs in OS X are limited. One example: I go to save a file and create a folder. Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog, I have to go and open a Finder instance. Windows generally lets you do anything in an Open/Save dialog that you can do from a Windows Explorer instance. There's a plugin for OS X that attempts to fix some of these issues called "Default Folder X".
- Display management: OS X doesn't have handy features to quickly turn off external displays like Windows where I just hit Win+P. If I want to get rid of a monitor in OS X I have to turn it off or unplug the video cable. Maybe in Yosemite they added the ability to disable a monitor via control panel. OS X also wants to go to sleep if I close a Macbook/Pro lid, even if an external monitor is plugged in.
>Save/Open dialogs in OS X are limited. One example: I go to save a file and create a folder. Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog, I have to go and open a Finder instance. Windows generally lets you do anything in an Open/Save dialog that you can do from a Windows Explorer instance. There's a plugin for OS X that attempts to fix some of these issues called "Default Folder X".
This was also a great annoyance for me on Linux (or more specifically, with the GTK file save/open dialog).
> - Keyboard acceleration for application menus is more consistent and robust under Windows. Press Alt + the underlined letter of any menu...
Definitely true. Although, the "common core" keyboard shortcuts are represented enough for me. I don't care to remember each individual program's hot letters. But it definitely is a lifesaver when you don't have access to a mouse.
> Apple seems to prefer buttons that have icons with no labels...Also, they seem to like...
That's beyond debatable subjectivity and well into the realm of "I just don't like it", so I'll just leave it at that (though I will say Chrome for windows is pretty icon heavy, and Visual Studio is moving that way as well). And to be fair, I think API and extensions are beyond the scope of what we were talking about.
> Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog,
That's definitely not true. I just walked over to an OSX machine and verified it wasn't my imagination. Perhaps it was a recent addition, I'll give you that, but I don't recall it being an issue for quite some time.
Sometimes I do miss the full power of a file explorer in my Save/Open dialog, but it's not all heaven on earth. If I'm working in directories in active instances of Explorer, and then I decide I want to save a file from a program to one of those directories, the dialog will use a default (typically My Documents) or the last used path that the application remembers you using. This means I have to drill down or seek out the aforementioned directories either through mouse or typing in the path manually. I find that to be an annoying waste of time, especially if I was deep in a directory tree in a totally different "forest" if you will.
With OSX, I can drag over the folder from Finder to the Save dialog, and it knows that, since the context is "you want to save something", that it should switch to that directory. The Windows save dialog will act like a special Explorer instance, as you said, and copy the dragged directory instead. Sure, there are a few times where that's handy, but I prefer the more logical contextual use.
- Display management
I agree with that, OS X is definitely lagging on multi-monitor features (although I personally rarely need to shut off or unplug my second monitor).
> Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals.
Funny, because one of my big peeves with Windows and Linux is that certain developer-handy UI/UX features are missing and/or a pain in the ass to set up (even aside from the terminal).
* Emacs editing and movement shortcuts are built into OSX system-wide. (Ctrl+A and Ctrl+P collide on Win, Linux and keyboard management in ubuntu is messy and unreliable)
* Modifier-remapping is easy and solid on OSX (Need to run the download.com gauntlet on Windows, Linux is again an unreliable mess)
* Opening a document's parent folder(s) is easy and universal on OSX (command click on document icon in title bar), good luck finding this outside an IDE anywhere else.
* Turning off a laptop's screen on demand is easy and reliable on OSX. It's frustrating on windows (I need 2 apps and a couple lines of code, wtf) and a nightmare on linux (where you're lucky to get working brightness control at all, let alone one that goes all the way to 0).
* Thermal management is solid on OSX. I can let my laptop build at night and sleep in the same room because the fan controller actually works. Meanwhile, Linux doesn't recognize the fans (you know what that means: max rpm all the time) and windows revs up like a NASCAR driver in rush hour traffic (it bluescreened both custom fan control apps I've tried, naturally).
* It's easy to get a file from Finder into "Open..." dialogs: just drag and drop (e.g. attach file), as opposed to re-navigating through the entire filesystem. Windows has one especially braindead "open" dialog type that almost seems to be designed for the particular purpose of making this difficult (you know, the one that doesn't let you Ctrl+L, doesn't scroll sideways, doesn't remember the last directory you were in, etc).
* Finder knows how to sort alphabetically. For some reason the closest that Windows is willing to do is "Sort by File/Folder status, and THEN alphabetically by name." This has the very frustrating effect that unzipped folders are often very far (both in screen space and keyboard space) from their .zip files. When you have to deal with a lot of them, this gets frustrating FAST.
I'll give Microsoft one thing: the Windows+X menu is a fine piece of work. But I imagine you have a list similar to my own of things that you like about Windows and can't find anywhere else. I'd appreciate a trick swap seeing as I'm stuck in the Windows ecosystem at the moment :)
>Emacs editing and movement shortcuts are built into OSX system-wide. (Ctrl+A and Ctrl+P collide on Win, Linux and keyboard management in ubuntu is messy and unreliable)
Not everyone likes emacs. Like the vast majority of PC users, I grew up with CUA programs and I loath emacs keybindings.
>Modifier-remapping is easy and solid on OSX (Need to run the download.com gauntlet on Windows, Linux is again an unreliable mess)
Autohotkey on Windows. I'll give you Linux, I don't remember exactly what song and dance involving .xmodmap and .xinitrc or some other shit I've forgotten that I had to go through last time.
>Opening a document's parent folder(s) is easy and universal on OSX (command click on document icon in title bar), good luck finding this outside an IDE anywhere else.
Most programs I've used support a "right click->open containing folder" option.
>Turning off a laptop's screen on demand is easy and reliable on OSX. It's frustrating on windows (I need 2 apps and a couple lines of code, wtf) and a nightmare on linux (where you're lucky to get working brightness control at all, let alone one that goes all the way to 0).
I could have sworn this "just worked" with my Thinkpad, but maybe it's different for Macbooks. Ditto for thermal management. Linux of course is a nightmare.
>It's easy to get a file from Finder into "Open..." dialogs: just drag and drop (e.g. attach file), as opposed to re-navigating through the entire filesystem. Windows has one especially braindead "open" dialog type that almost seems to be designed for the particular purpose of making this difficult (you know, the one that doesn't let you Ctrl+L, doesn't scroll sideways, doesn't remember the last directory you were in, etc).
Drag and drop is supported by almost every Windows program I've used. For attaching files in web forms, you're supposed to drag the file onto the "select file" button in the web page, not into the "open file" dialog.
>Finder knows how to sort alphabetically. For some reason the closest that Windows is willing to do is "Sort by File/Folder status, and THEN alphabetically by name." This has the very frustrating effect that unzipped folders are often very far (both in screen space and keyboard space) from their .zip files. When you have to deal with a lot of them, this gets frustrating FAST.
I prefer it that way, because 99% of the time I'm not unzipping a bunch of .zip files, and I'd rather see the directories first if I'm trying to navigate deep into a directory tree.
> ...the more that Windows tries to be like OS X the less I like it.
I am with you! It started with the default Taskbar configuration and "pinning" things. I find it completely useless and I always disable grouping. Furthermore, I use 7+ taskbar tweaker to make the Taskbar act exactly the way I want it to and I have actually written a couple Microsofties in an attempt to get them to buy this company and integrate it :)
The one thing that I'm really disappointed in though is the Ribbon. I just wish that I could hunt through it with the keyboard or mouse as easily as I can with regular menus. Hunting with the mouse is too clicky - you can scroll the middle wheel now, but I'd rather just activate each tab when I put the pointer over it. Hunting throught the Ribbon with the keyboard is ridiculous too because all of the tool-tips just get in the way of seeing what's there. I like classic menus and toolbars way, way better except when I'm on a touch device.
