Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Amazing job! This might be a silly question but are their any ideas as to the actual real world benefits we could see from this? The director-general of the ESA said "This is a big step for human civilisation" so I presume there is some idea of what they expect to gain from this mission?

Edit: Thanks for all the replies! I'm at work now but will take a look at them this evening.



The actual real world benefits of Space Flight are strange. For example the Apollo program didn't bring back DeathCrystals from the moon, that allowed us to crush the Soviets in a glorious patriot war (obviously sarcasm).

Instead it gave us seemly random things, that we were looking for, but are beneficial nonetheless and some which may not come out right away.

The Apollo Mission gave us

ASICs, Cordless Tools, CAT scan, Ear Thermometer, Smoke Detector, Shoe insoles, carbon based water filters, satellite television (boardcasted, not passive reflected), Scratch resistant lenses.

These things aren't why we went to the moon. Inventing them kinda just happened to see the program though. Space travel challenges the status quo of technology. Its really REALLY hard. So when ever we (humans) do it, we face new problems, and our solutions sometimes have effects for those on earth.


Not to mention inspiring generations.

I wouldn't be a programmer with the space program, it inspired a life long love of science and technology.


> For example the Apollo program didn't bring back DeathCrystals from the moon, that allowed us to crush the Soviets in a glorious patriot war (obviously sarcasm).

Sarcasm aside, this is more due to Geneva Conventions rather than actual lack of Death Crystals on the moon.


I'm pretty sure if we had found Death Crystals on the moon we would have figured out a way to synthesize and weaponize them on earth.


Check out this gif of the orbital maneuvers required for Rosetta to reach its destination:

https://i.imgur.com/TUkKuhf.gif

This probably won't be very impressive in a few hundred years, but for now it's a remarkable engineering achievement.


Please don't use .gifs for videos, :(


There are several benefits gained, both scientifically and politically.

Scientific:

* Comets may show us early composition of our solar system since they change less than planets. This may help answer questions related to where water came or where DNA/RNA molecules came from.

* Lessons learned here will directly contribute to the success of future missions on both mars and the moon

* Solar cell technology was directly advanced, helping push forward solar energy

Political & Social:

* Brings governments closer together These types of missions require a great amount of cooperation and help stabilize and improve the international political landscape. Around 20 countries cooperated in this mission.

* Inspire more people to enter science, math and engineering

* Increase collaboration of universities and industry, helping close the gap between theoretical and applied science.

[edited to fix formatting]


One thing the other (very good) replies miss: Never underestimate the power of 'gee whiz' technology has on children. This is cool, exciting engineering. Even if the scientific results are "boring", that is to say we don't get any unexpected data, the act of pushing the boundaries of what humans have been able to do is inspirational. There are kids who will learn about this in school the next few days, and see it on the news, and hear grown ups talking about how neat it is, and decide "I want to be an engineer", or "I want to be a scientist". It doesn't take many of them making this decision to have a big, long term impact (which provides a great societal ROI on the mission).


Improved understanding of our solar system, its history and our place in the universe is a real benefit that soon will be available for anyone. Comets are generally very old, so can enable us to learn a lot about solar system's history.

Achieving engineering capabilities required to land on comets is a step forward for human civilization.

I consider the above to be actual real world benefits. If they are not, I'm not sure where the boundary of the real world is and where the imaginary world begins.


Thanks. I would definitely consider the second point a real world benefit but if we are going to spend over $1bn to learn about the solar system's history I take it we are hoping to discover something that actually has benefits to humanity (e.g. when the money could have had more immediate impacts treating disease or helping the poor etc.). Don't get me wrong I'm all for these kinds of missions I just thought that to get that kind of funding the scientists would have had to put forward a list of possible things they might learn which could benefit humanity in the short term to help justify the cost. I'm basically looking for the idiots list of why we should spend so much money on this.

Edit: Several downvotes even though I tried to make it clear I'm FOR this kind of spending. My problem is basically how do you explain to someone on the street why spending $1bn on a mission to a comet is worth it when we don't know what benefits it will bring.


First, curiosity and the need for understanding the universe and our place in it are real human needs. I agree they do not have the short-term urgency and fulfilling them is a long-term objective.

Second, having all of humanity live on a single speck of rock puts us in a very precarious position as a species and introduces a single-point of failure to our civilization. Therefore, the development of technical capabilities to move freely around the solar system and eventually beyond is also an objective for humanity. Again, I admit, it is a long-term one without short-term urgency of say, getting rid of Ebola.

So the whole issue is essentially a question of the right balance of the amount of effort we invest in working on our short-term urgent objectives and the long-term ones.

With world GDP in excess of $70 trillion per year [1], spending 1 billion EUR ($1.25 billion) for a decade-long mission does not seem like extravagance.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

EDIT: To further put the cost of the mission into perspective: assuming the contributions for the mission came from about half a billion people (EU population) over a decade this translates into about 20 euro-cents per year. Seriously, this is not extravagance. In fact, given that the mission cost is over 20% of ESA's yearly budget it makes me think Europe is under-investing in its space capabilities and scientific research. Nitpick: ESA member states don't overlap with the EU exactly, but it is a good enough proxy. More accurate figure would allow for American and other contributions to the on-board instruments so would be even less than 20 euro-cents/year/person.


Maybe you need first the idiots list of bad ways to spending tax money

Military: $640bn (per year) War on drugs: $41bn (per year) Health-care overcharging & overtesting: $1200bn (per year)

And this is just the US, now imagine those costs worldwide.

So, in contrast, this is a first-time-experiment where we get to do something never done before, using a lot of tech in brand new conditions (for us) where thousands put to test their knowledge of physics, electronics and astronomy. In such light you might understand why you are being downvoted.


It's interesting that you believe that missions like this must be justified by short term benefits. These missions are very fortunately not about short term benefits.

One of the initial motivations for this mission was to learn more about our solar system's origins by studying a comet up close. Many engineering challenges were also overcome in the process, which will lead to positive side effects for future space missions and related areas, but one of the primary scientific questions this mission attempts to answer is "why is our solar system the way it is?" Answers to that question will likely help us better understand our place in the universe, and possibly shine a light on other solar systems as well. Maybe even give us a better idea how likely we are to encounter life in other solar systems, and what that life might be composed of.

Ironically, compared to questions of cosmic significance like these, short term concerns like treating present diseases or improving the current economic environment are petty and irrelevant by comparison. These are issues that science and government can tackle on earth, and issues where throwing more money at the problem doesn't always help. It is a fallacy to think that because space travel requires money, that earthly needs will go unfulfilled. It's deeply short sighted, in fact.

Your comment seems to be rooted in a deep misunderstanding of the nature of science. Science does not proceed by first devising a list of improvements to human wellbeing that will result from an experiment (though the grant application process in universities sometimes encompasses this task--with a lot of handwaving as a result). Science is about expanding our sphere of knowledge. By definition, we don't know what will result, or if it will have a positive impact. But we are trying something that has never been tried before, which is deeply interesting, and which has the potential to greatly expand our knowledge of the universe. Science is fundamentally a research activity: you can't know in advance what you will find. Asking what we will find before performing the experiment is pointless. The "might find" category for a mission like this is enormous, however.


You're asking a reasonable question.

I'm not sure how Rosetta was run; it had a longer germination time than many missions.

But for a typical science-driven mission, there is a thing called a "Science Traceability Matrix", or STM, that has science goals down one side and measurements down the other side. Every science goal must be traced to one or more measurements that will achieve it, and every measurement must correspond to some goal. If the linkage is not clear, the measurement (i.e., instrument - one spacecraft typically has many instruments) will be booted.

For more: http://csc.caltech.edu/references/Grogan%20STM.pdf [page ~8 has a matrix]

The science goals, in turn, are arrived at through National Academies studies, typically Decadal Surveys, done once per 10 years (often with a midpoint course correction). Membership in the NAS is a very big deal that few scientists achieve; the expertise of these people is unreal. That is:

  state of science knowledge -> 
  decadal survey ->
  science goals ->
  traceability matrix ->
  specific instrument choices
This is idealized, but mostly the process follows these rules. A particularly good example is Earth observing satellites, which are governed by decadal surveys like this one:

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=13405

One of the outcomes of all the space funding over the years is that there is now a somewhat orderly process for attacking big questions systematically.


If you want to talk about spending priorities, how about the folly of the Iraq war, trident, etc. those cost huge amounts more than this mission? Not everyone has the same priorities as you.

Thank goodness at least some of our money is spent on things which might benefit humanity in the long term, like discovering how the solar system was formed or whether life was formed on earth or elsewhere.


...where did I indicate I would rather spend that money on war and weapons? My comment actually states: "Don't get me wrong I'm all for these kinds of missions".

As for your long term benefits:

Great so we find out how the solar system is formed or where life was formed - now what? Those are really cool things to know but what do we do with that information? The reason I'm curious about this is that although I want to see more of these missions and I think it would be great to have answers to those questions I find it difficult to actually justify spending that money on answering questions. There must be some tangible benefit. Other responses to my question have provided me with answers to that.


> I find it difficult to actually justify spending that money on answering questions. There must be some tangible benefit.

Maybe they haven't been discovered yet. Application can lag theory or basic experiments for a very long time. Did the car come right after the wheel? Did the iPhone come right after Ohm's Law? Maybe this will aid comet/asteroid mining missions. Or optical image processing. Or orbit optimization for long solar system traverses. I think it's very shortsighted to pursue only research that has visible short-term benefits, because you could be missing out on countless innovations that are below the horizon. We can't predict the future. But I also think application is unnecessary, and that there is inherent value in understanding our world.

In any case, while I don't know how much the average European pays for ESA in taxes, I do know the average American pays something like a few bucks to fund NASA. So you're quibbling over the use of a tiny proportion of resources to answer some big questions.


"Don't get me wrong I'm all for these kinds of missions"

Which you then contradicted by whining about not seeing the benefit of it; you're clearly not all for this mission or you wouldn't have derailed this top thread with your concern troll.

There doesn't have to be a tangible, short term benefit for these missions to be considered worthwhile by the majority of humanity, so your question is irrelevant to them. If you can't see the benefit to us of finding out when and where life was formed, I can't help you.


>> "I can't help you."

That's fine. There are plenty of other answers to my legitimate question (certainly wasn't trolling) and those were able to help me.


While I'm sure there was an "idiots list" at some point, this is the kind of criticism that science has had to put up with for a while. Governments understand by now that it's well worth it to invest in research, even research that doesn't have obvious immediate benefits.

The LHC took over $13B to discover Higgs. It's a bit of a stretch to call it a discovery, it was really a confirmation of what we were already pretty sure of. But, that money didn't just disappear; it went into building a tech industry which is pretty valuable to have. And a better understanding of our universe has a funny way of being really useful down the road.


Trying to find answers to the most important questions is much more important than saving a few thousand people now. Plus, we'll probably need to leave Earth one day, and before that we need to know how.


  Ernst Stuhlinger wrote this letter on May 6, 1970, to Sister Mary Jucunda, a nun who worked among the starving children of Kabwe, Zambia, in Africa, who questioned the value of space exploration. At the time Dr. Stuhlinger was Associate Director for Science at the Marshall Space Flight Center, in Huntsville, Alabama. 
https://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-...


Perhaps one real world benefit from better understanding the composition of comets would be an improved ability to destroy one that is on a collision course with Earth.


To pick one example, before the landing it was discovered that the gas jets emitted by the comet interact with the solar wind to produce a unique signal: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/11/12/4126840.ht...

The detailed dynamics are yet to be determined, but since the comet has an orbit that takes it from as close to the sun as Earth and as far away as Jupiter, this signal should change as it travels. Or maybe it doesn't, and if so, that would be a mystery worth investigating. This is a completely unexpected discovery that enables us to study a comet's magnetic field, and how it interacts with the solar wind.

Here are some possible benefits just from this one discovery:

1) The instruments necessary to even detect this signal are very impressive by themselves, developing them has probably improved a number of instrumentation technologies on Earth already.

2) The lander's instruments cannot penetrate the surface very far. The fact that this comet even has a magnetic field (however weak) is interesting. It could mean that a significant portion of the comet's interior is composed of iron, nickel, cobalt, or rare earth metals, which would be useful knowledge for people like these: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/asteroid-mining-venture-backed-b...

3) If future missions to comets find a different type of signal, which in turn leads to a different type of internal composition, the differences in a comet's magnetic field could be used to infer the composition of its interior from a distance, without sending any probes to the surface at all.


In addition to all the other responses, there's one benefit I haven't seen mentioned yet. In the event that a comet is discovered on a collision course with Earth (an extremely low probability event, but one with enormously bad consequences) then knowing more about the structure and composition of comets would be essential to deflecting it.


I am sure that companies like Planetary Recources (and anyone who wants to make refueling in space possible) will greatly benefit from the discoveries made during this mission.


It's mostly about understanding our solar system and how it formed - comets supposedly contain a lot of early material and could be key to understanding the formation of various parts of the system.

Some believe that water or other materials from comets were fundamental in the origination of life here on Earth.

It also gives us more understanding on the material composition of the rest of space - which might be of more practical use once we start mining space, for example.


The lander's mission is:

> elemental, isotopic, molecular and mineralogical composition of the cometary material, the characterization of physical properties of the surface and subsurface material, the large-scale structure and the magnetic and plasma environment of the nucleus

Amongst other things, they'll be looking for complex organic molecules.


"Strange how much human progress and achievement comes from contemplation of the irrelevant." - Scott Kim


Apart from discovering the unknown and adding to the body of knowledge facts about an object that we currently know nothing about, "comets are thought to have delivered a vast quantity of water to Earth, and they may have also seeded Earth with organic molecules" [1] which means that they might hold important clues to how life started here on Earth. Realistically this could have potential future benefits to things we can't even phantom about today - perhaps such discoveries about the origins of life could lead to fundamental innovations in human health.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(spacecraft)#Search_for...


i watched a docu on the large hadron collider and the search for the higgs boson particle where they asked one of the scientists a similar question. what do you expect to gain monitarily from that xBillion dollars we just spent on this? his reply was 'i don't know'. he went on to give the example of how when radio waves were first discovered nobody called them 'radio waves' because no one had thought to use them in that way yet. I think a lot of exploritory science can be framed this way. we do it to get a better understanding of the world we live in.


Reminds me of a great conversation in The West Wing (one of the best written shows ever made, in my opinion).

A senator (ENLOW) has put an anonymous hold on building a supercollider, the white house deputy communications director (SAM) wants to help his old professor (MILLGATE) get the budget approved for it, and this is near the end of the episode:

  ENLOW
  I'm a Democrat, Sam. How's a 20 billion dollar astronomy lecture gonna help
  the President get elected?
  
  SAM
  It won't. "We've discovered a seamless, intellectual framework for the
  universe" isn't a good 30-second spot.
  
  ENLOW
  If only we could only say what benefit this thing has, but no one's been 
  able to do that.
  
  MILLGATE
  That's because great achievement has no road map. The X-ray's pretty good. 
  So is penicillin. Neither were discovered with a practical objective in 
  mind. I mean, when the electron was discovered in 1897, it was useless. And 
  now, we have an entire world run by electronics. Haydn and Mozart never 
  studied the classics. They couldn't. They invented them.
  
  SAM
  Discovery.

  MILLGATE
  What?

  SAM
  That's the thing that you were... Discovery is what. That's what this is used 
  for. 
  It's for discovery.
(I tried to find a clip, because Sorkin's writing is even more beautiful when acted by Rob Lowe.. but can't on YouTube.)


A similarly great West Wing clip about exploration re: Mars mission.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHGK96-WixU

"The history of man is hung on the timeline of exploration and this is what's next."


Heh, watched that when looking for the scene I pasted, as I couldn't remember which of those "what's the point of this science" episodes was the one with the quote I wanted - what an amazing show. Need to rewatch again soon.


Real world benefit? In 20 years, we move the production capacity of China to space, and everyone, anywhere on the Earth, has the ability to order a product, remotely assembled on our comet moon, for direct delivery.

sigh A man can dream.


It would honestly be faster to ship it overseas.


I'm quite fine with putting stuff in a holding LEO with robots and having it sit there, waiting for delivery by parachute to my pals and I while we sit in the bliss of an industry-free paradise here on Earth. If we move all the poisonous things to space, where it belongs, we make a better Earth. You bet I'd love to be designing package delivery systems which bring me my new softhard from space. Put all manufacturing on a comet, use its resources (which are plenty) with robot bases, send the result back to a recovering ecosphere, the only one of its kind, here on Earth.


> the bliss of an industry-free paradise here on Earth

See, that's what you should've mentioned the first time. :P

I'm cool with that dream. I just thought you were hoping to get stuff faster by dropping it on our heads.


Ice from Jupiter-class comet supposed to be what seeded Earth with water billions of years ago. Want to see what chemicals are there etc.


I get that part but what tangible benefits will I/humanity see from it? Or is it more of a case of gaining more knowledge about how the Universe works in the hope that that knowledge combined with other knowledge may lead to something eventually?


This is how all science has always worked. Peasants were probably upset once that nobleman would spend their money on playing with mould in glass containers(what good could possibly come out of it????), rather than buy them food or clothing, yet that's how penicillin(and countless other drugs) came about. Do you think every inventor in history had a crystal clear idea what they were inventing and how was it going to change the world? Think about this as our R&D department - it has to get some money to keep pushing us forward.

And not everything is done as a benefit/loss game - I would personally invest significant time and money into finding out how the universe came about, even if such knowledge doesn't do anything for starving children in Nigeria. However, the beauty of it is that you on the other hand can go and spend YOUR time and YOUR money on whatever YOU please. As for public spending - if you don't like it, go and vote.


Space exploration is not for you. Your tax share of this mission, depending on where you live, is either zero or nearly zero. Asking for personal benefits from a space probe is silly.

However, your children, and their children, and so on will likely see benefits from it. The future is impossible to predict, however, so nobody can say what they will be. The principal benefit of missions like this is the new knowledge they generate. That knowledge is then the intellectual heritage of humanity for eternity, and can be used for any number of inventions, benefits, and future discoveries.

You are thinking too small. Even if somehow nothing ever comes of this mission, this is the sort of thing that humanity does not because it has survival value, but because it gives value to survival.


Survival of our species.


Probably 'just' the achievement of catching a speeding comet and landing on it. The comet itself doesn't seem all that interesting.


Comets are thought to be remains of the frozen cloud of gas/dust that our solar system was created from. So the hope is we can learn about the creation of our solar system.

On top of that it's the biggest acchievement of the European Space Agency.

And landing on a 4 km small rock 500,000,000 km from Earth after 12 years of travelling is in itself remarkable.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: