I remember everything about highschool trig. And chemistry. And physics. And certainly the rest of math. We might waste the time of the kids that are going to end up flipping burgers, but we don't waste the time of the brighter kids. If anything we move too slow.
So I own a burger restaurant in the bay area.................
You would be surprised by both the number of people that can't do basic math (i.e. figure out what combination of coins leads to $8.72) and the number of people that want a minimum wage job while they already have a college degree (worst being one in CS...in the bay area? really? followed up by a foreign MBA...)
Also, one day I was standing at a bus stop near the restaurant waiting to go back home and I listened to 3 ~18 year olds talking about their college classes. This is roughly how the conversation went: "that fucking bitch (at the local college) won't let me take statistics. just because I failed algebra 2 doesn't mean I can't do math. I'm really good at math! I passed geometry and shit! why can't I just take that statistics class?" "yeah algebra is really hard. I took regular algebra in high school and i had a lot of problems...I think I have to do it again" "I'm really bad at math. I have to take a couple math classes to graduate, so I might just drop out of school. I can't do that shit, I don't know how you can go on about wanting to take statistics". Then they went on about how science, english, and other general education requirements are bullshit. So I'm standing there - went to college at 16, forgot more math than all of them combined will ever learn, read biochem texts for fun on holiday and I _want_ to have the luxury to study hard and go to med school. My parents sacrificed a lot to do everything they could for me too - their parents couldn't. Life is unfair.
I had flashbacks to high school where everyone in my program within an inner city school were in honors precalc or AP calc AB/BC and AP statistics classes, but we shared PE classes with the "regular" school and we helped a lot of our fellow students learn basic algebra to pass high school exit exams and tests in between activities. Makes me want to figure out how to overhaul education in the US - it's garbage and it's failing everyone - my program full of "geniuses" and the single parents working a job struggling to graduate high school alike.
Anyhow, the important part about math isn't the memorization. It's the process.
Geometry and trigonometry aren't that useful by themselves. Even Algebra is marginal. Probability and statistics are way more useful. However, all of it comes together when you hit calculus which is VERY useful.
Can I integrate from memory anymore? No. Can I solve a differential equation from memory? No.
I'm going to use Mathematica if it's a one off. I will bone up on the process if I'm hitting it too often.
However, I'm always doing Bayesian probability estimates for all manner of things in programming, business, manufacturing, etc.
Just because someone isn't good at mathematics (or whatever subject) doesn't lead them to a life of flipping burgers, nor does it mean they're less bright.
Yes, schools train and select for obedience. Certainly not intellectual excellence. (Such as contradicting what the fool in front of the class says; or deciding for yourself whether attending one day is an effective use for your time, compared to reading an engrossing book.) If intellectual excellence were the goal, the institution would look very different.
Those who succeeded in such a system tend to enjoy thinking it's a meritocracy, and implicitly consider themselves bright. Others obviously have a different perspective.
And then they go to lives of selecting against people with more gumption. It may be good for institutional stability, but not so great for organizational innovation and adaptability.
It could mean they're more intelligent and more creative too, just perhaps not having the patience or mental structure for learning and applying mathematics, chemistry, whatever. So that makes comparisons a bit of a moot point, and so the focus should be a) getting people into activities where they're learning things they're motivated and interested in learning about, and b) treating everyone kindly, which means having compassion which means having understanding about how intelligences work, how people work, and not using language that tells a person what they're be or not be if they do one thing versus another. If you tell someone that they'll do well at something, they'll do better at it than if you tell them they'll do badly.
> We might waste the time of the kids that are going to end up flipping burgers, but we don't waste the time of the brighter kids.
I would have said we really waste the time of the brighter kids. (Though we waste their motivation more.) We just waste it in a different way. Bright kids could pick up the math they need in a very short period of time on their own, but we present the material only in drips and drabs at a glacially slow pace with lots of repetition, working on the assumption that they're not really paying attention and probably forget everything during breaks.
Ask a mathematics professor to remember all the random formulas that kids are force fed in highschool trig. You are as likely to get a blank stare as an answer. Are they the "slow kids"?
No you're not. You're just making up tore own statistics. If mathematician can't recite it quickly, she can certainly develop the formula. Really, trigonometry? This is pretty simple stuff. Is it that the surprising to some of you that there are "programmers" on "HackerNews" that might, at whatever age, still know such elementary mathematics?
>I remember everything about highschool trig. And chemistry. And physics. And certainly the rest of math.
Who cares? Honestly? Do you think Jeff Bezos busts out his impressive high school trig in the middle of the day? Do you think Larry Page even remembers the formula for transfer of moment?
If all you learned for HS was the formula for conversion from moles to molecules and not how to apply logical thinking and abstract processes into practical applications you suffer from the same problem that the OP was complaining about.
I think your comments are misplaced and I think using billionaires as examples is a poor way to try to win an argument. Larry Ellison is probably not a very good person either, does that mean all the learning about treating people well in elementary school is a waste of time?
As a parent of three bright children with excellent development reports your comment makes me want to do you considerable violence. Regardless of whether my children were skilled in mathematics or not, if I overhead your derisory attitude to kids learning abilities I would probably punch your teeth out.
And no, I wouldn't be sorry. Sometimes violence is the best teacher and learning not to refer to other peoples children that way is probably far more valuable a lesson in life than your highschool trig.
Just remember, for every child you refer to as a burger flipper - X probability will have fathers standing 6' 2", weighing 240 and a former linebacker.
I never said I was quick to violence. I am normally a very calm person.
That comment was ridiculous. In this regard we define "someone's child" as a non-adult. Technically an adult is someone's child but it is unlikely they require their parents protection in some way so in the spirit of the comment it is fallacious to include adults in the reasoning.
Simply insulting kids under the age of 10 and pigeon-holing what they will do in life based on a narrow prejudice deserves a hiding frankly. It also neatly sidesteps the phenomenal salaries that people in the fast food industry can earn if they want to progress.
In addition, Zen is not the opposite of violence. Actually, it is one of the aims prior to entering into martial combat.
