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How to prevent a meritocracy entrenching itself (economist.com)
94 points by ekpyrotic on Feb 9, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 101 comments



Given the audience of this site, it's interesting that this topic has even floated toward the top. And, it's also interesting (but hardly surprising) that most of the comments are blindly for meritocracy.

Yeah - meritocracy sounds great in principle. And, we can agree that it's leagues better than aristocracy. But, over generational scales, aristocracy and meritocracy are very closely aligned.

Meritocracy begins first with a wave of smart, risk-taking, hard-working, uncompromising, (perhaps immoral) people who usurp the establishment. And, we certainly celebrate that. It brings a shift, and usually rewards many others.

But, it's when those same people put their children and grandchildren in positions where risks nearly vanish that we worry about. They naturally give their descendents their connections, secret knowledge, wealth, safety and other benefits. And, they unconsciously change the rules to favor themselves. And, they seem to dismiss all those elements when their spawns happen to reach similar heights. And, slowly, they begin to believe that it's some genetic component, or something innate in them, that has caused it. And, then the new aristocracy is born.

I think the article is bringing attention to this, and it's good to do so. The new rich should be allowed to let their children and grandchildren live great lives. But, those descendents should not become the gatekeepers of the rest of the world's amazing talent. There are just to many brilliant, hard-working people in the world, who aren't connected, who need a chance.


"meritocracy sounds great in principle. And, we can agree that it's leagues better than aristocracy"

Meritocracy is a form of aristocracy. The word "aristocracy" comes from the Greek words for "best" and "power," or in other words a system where those who are most fit to rule will be the leaders of society. It sounds great in principle, the only problem is the definition of "best."


This may be true of the greek words, but language shifts. Now the word aristocracy refers to a system by which a class of people is in charge, and in which membership of said class is almost completely dependent on parentage. It is also of note that in this class system, membership and genetics are more important than any other factors such as wealth, intelligence, "merit" (as we generally use the term: displaying high ability and accomplishment in tasks).


Except that parentage was a critical concept in the Greek notion of the "best". The necessity of membership was less important, but it was still important.


> They naturally give their descendents their connections, secret knowledge, wealth, safety and other benefits.

The idea is that society in whole should be set up in such a way that connections and secret knowledge isn't valued as highly as it is now. George W Bush didn't become president because of merit, but because of connections and inherited wealth. A better system would have more highly valued leadership skills, rhethorical skills and general smartness and kept dofuses like him out of power.


To expand on your comments I think it is safe to say that the elite, whether aristocracy or meritocracy, are adept at keeping the wealth, influence and power for themselves and their friends. Some of it is innate in that they will pass on resources to their children out of a desire to see them succeed. Some of it is cronyism as they want to do good things for their friends.


"For instance, standardised tests were supposed to favour the brainy, but the $4.5 billion test-prep industry, which disproportionately caters to the rich, indicates that this is being gamed. Intelligence tests should be more widely used."

As if intelligence tests weren't gameable and didn't favor the prepared. What's worse is that they test a very narrow definition of intelligence. That cure would be worse than the disease.


The author might respond "They are less gameable than the 'standardised' tests, and the 'standardised' tests are even narrower than the intelligence tests".


SATs are actually not particularly amenable to test prep (unless Kaplan is funding the study).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124278685697537839.html


This, yet again, reinforces my view that funding schools through property taxes is a perverse and ultimately damaging idea. I understand the ideals behind it (schools are funded locally, playing into the strange american fixation with avoiding distributing tax revenues). Affirmative action is mentioned as outdated, but perhaps it is a sign that american society still feels guilty over the fact that not sixty years ago large swathes were still arguing against the integration of schools.

(As an aside, isn't there a thing where the titles of links are changed when they don't match the content that everyone keeps complaining about? Wouldn't this be a prime example of a link whose title should be changed to match the article within?)


> perhaps it is a sign that american society still feels guilty over the fact that not sixty years ago large swathes were still arguing against the integration of schools

Smaller swaths of American society are still against the integration of schools, for the record. If you survey and abstract the arguments made, you'll find a lot that have the structure, "If this political action (e.g. bill passes; bill is defeated; president elected, etc.) happens, then our children will be forced to learn that apostasy (e.g. gay agenda, lots of sex, non-Biblical whatevers, etc.)." As has been pointed out repeatedly by pro-gay advocates, this is a verbatim, find/replace repetition of arguments against racial integration.


Definitely! This was the most line of reasoning in the article with the most impact. Property taxes are often progressive, disproportionally affecting the relatively wealthy. That's good. But when the benefits are collected and spent too locally, it means areas with higher property values also get better services. It takes away the progressive quality of property taxes.

Continue this to an extreme: property taxes that I pay are only spent on my household. The city/county maintains my property, educates my children. There's no more progressive distribution.


I think you've gotten your definition of progressive muddled. Property taxes are considered to be progressive because property values are widely considered to correlate strongly with income and wealth. Spending those taxes locally (or apportioning funds for local amenaties based on local tax revenue) is regressive, because increased benefit is then therefore correlated strongly with increased wealth and income. Therefore, your example represents a most regressive distribution of tax distribution.


They originate from small New England towns where they would have been progressive. Now that the rich and the poor don't live near each other they're regressive.


I think we agree. I didn't put it as succinctly. Progressive tax. Regressive distribution. That's an excellent way of looking at it.


What definition of progressive are you using? They aren't super linear relative to income.


An "entrenched meritocracy" is a contradiction. It's not a true meritocracy. Instead, it's an aristocracy claiming to be one, which is a bit tautological, since every such class claims it deserves its privileged position. People in other times and places believed they deserved their privileges just as sincerely as you do right now. Of course, the situation is different because we're smarter than they are ;)


I disagree. Except for the ultra-wealthy 0.0001%ers, it is as close to a true meritocracy it has ever been because the ones with merit rise to the top. A good surgeon can make 3-4x a poor surgeon. A good programmer can make 2-3x a poor programmer. If you are a fantastic programmer and you make $50k/yr in US, it means either (1) you don't care about money (2) you don't know how to negotiate. There is no way a fantastic programmer is going to be stuck at 50k in the US today. A poor programmer can end up with a 100k salary through connections/seniority etc. but more often than not, most of them are in the 35k-65k range.

It is entrenched because only those on the top can afford to pay for good education for their children so they can become good in their professions. Doctors can afford to send their kids to top tier private-schools and Ivy League universities, which means their kids have a better shot at being a good doctor or engineer learning under Nobel Laureates compared to the kids of auto-mechanics and park rangers, whose teachers might not have the best credentials.

What I would agree with you on, is that this isn't too different from the past when children of top ranking military generals got better training and ended up being better soldiers and generals than the children of farmers and blacksmiths. Nobody's saying children of farmers or auto-mechanics are any less able. They just don't get the best training.


>...it is as close to a true meritocracy it has ever been because the ones with merit rise to the top.

And then;

>Nobody's saying children of farmers or auto-mechanics are any less able. They just don't get the best training.

So it's a meritocracy but the training isn't available to all? Doesn't sound like a meritocracy to me.


> Doesn't sound like a meritocracy to me.

Yes, but nothing made out of organized humans ever adheres to mathematically rigorous definition. (1)

Our lot is loads better than that of some poor orphan in Haiti, and our opportunities were distributed with tons more equity. That said, it's far from perfect. There are parts of our messy society that are close to meritocracy, and there's other parts that are headache inducing doppelgangers of it. It's a mess, but you can also think of it as opportunity.

((1) - In fact, whenever you think you are about to make a clever or skeptical point in a societally based intellectual discussion, tell yourself this first, then see if you still want to. Same goes for biology and software engineering.)


I think the article did a poor job of representing the recent efforts by elite universities to open up access to the children of farmers and auto-mechanics. http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ There's still more to be done, sure, but it's important to mention that this isn't as bad as it was even 10 years ago.


Interesting. I'm the daughter of an electrician. I was admitted to Harvard in 2002, and at that time I believe they wanted my parents to pay about $12,000 for my first year. My parents couldn't afford it, and I did not attend. If that calculator is to be believed, Harvard would now expect less than $3000 from my parents. I probably would have attended had that been the case back then.


I think things changed a lot around 2009? I'm just going by memory... but I think that's when a lot of the ivies drastically changed tuition assistance based on income.


"Except for the ultra-wealthy 0.0001%ers, it is as close to a true meritocracy it has ever been because the ones with merit rise to the top."

The article seems to contradict that:

"Using one-generation measures of social mobility—how much a father’s relative income influences that of his adult son—America does half as well as Nordic countries, and about the same as Britain and Italy, Europe’s least-mobile places."


I have no doubt that there are problems in America caused by the fact that children who are born from poorer families have significant handicaps (i.e., it's hard to concentrate in school when you're hungry, and the sound of gunshots at night tend to distract you from homework).

It's also true, though, that to whatever extent that genetics influence relative income (and despite counter examples such as the Romney family, I'd like to hope that intelligence has _some_ correlation with income) that might explain some of the correlation between parental income and the income of their children. A proper study should try to study the correlation of parental income with the income of the income of adopted children (preferably adopted under the age of two). This is why sociological research is so difficult....


I think it's also worth considering, "How does one become a top doctor or programmer or whatever?" Just because talented people are well paid, does not mean we live in a meritocracy. There are lots of people who have untapped talent they are unable to utilize. Impoverished child prodigies and Taxi driver M.D.s come to mind.


Whenever you talk about what someone can "make", salary, earned income, you are automatically excluding the "top". Engineers and surgeons may be at the top of the middle class but their kids are still not getting auto-accepted at Harvard because there's a building named after Dad.


it is as close to a true meritocracy it has ever been because the ones with merit rise to the top.

How? Please explain what magical elevator makes this happen, because VC-istan seems to be a combination of connections and luck, large organizations tend to be clueless and political, and academia has been dying for at least a generation and a half. What I've seen may be limited and atypical, but I haven't seen anything that looks like this. I've seen the same nonsense that humanity has been repeating for thousands of years.

A good programmer can make 2-3x a poor programmer.

That has more to do with the fact that the good programmers tend to gravitate toward high-COL places. Even those good programmers can't raise a family (in NYC or Silicon Valley) on what they make unless (a) they beat the VC-istan game (see above) or (b) they work for those large companies, in which case advancement is 90% political.

The closest thing to a meritocracy seems to be finance, which is seriously flawed but is more honest about its shortcomings.


> How? Please explain what magical elevator makes this happen, because VC-istan seems to be a combination of connections and luck, large organizations tend to be clueless and political, and academia has been dying for at least a generation and a half. What I've seen may be limited and atypical, but I haven't seen anything that looks like this. I've seen the same nonsense that humanity has been repeating for thousands of years.

The problem may well be the "human condition" as substrate. In addition to talent in whatever domain or particular desirable skill-set, a person also needs to negotiate other people. If a large project is to be accomplished, the talents and effort of large numbers of people need to be marshaled. Unfortunately, our heuristics for interaction were tuned to keeping together small bands of people primarily concerned with food and defense. ("Paleo" BS notwithstanding, but this much is certainly true.)

What we have isn't a magical elevator. It's more like our brains doing Boolean algebra and predicate calculus. On average, we humans are notoriously unreliable at logic. So much so, we have terms for dozens of dysfunctions which happen all the time. (Fallacies.) With proper training and attention, we can be quite good, however. So it is with "meritocracy" and all of its various doppelgangers. The "cream" does rise to the top, but so does the scum. Talent can help you. "Talent" in the form of attributes that let you sleep your way to the top also help you. You can make it on sheer talent, but the ability to wage subtle, deniable psychological warfare on your rivals to diminish their confidence and shine will help you too. So will realpolitik maneuverings or just being physically attractive.

Many will just put it down to getting older and bitter, but the older I get, the more I realize that we really are (mostly metaphorical) feces-flinging, screeching, long-legged savannah-apes that just so happen to have exceptional individuals and exceptional moments of godlike beauty, wisdom, and insight. Neal Stephenson: “The difference between stupid and intelligent people – and this is true whether or not they are well-educated – is that intelligent people can handle subtlety.” The muck and mess of human interaction is every bit as subtle as it is unsavory.

(And the older I get, the stupider I feel.)


If working at a big company gives a low level employee an upper middle class lifestyle, who needs advancement? That is extremely advanced (95%) compared to the developed world as a whole.


Advancement and improvement over time are, for many (I might say most), fairly major parts of what Maslow would call self-actualization--the drive to improve and better oneself.

So, "most people"?


Yes, the article brushes aside the idea of wealth redistribution, but the simple truth is that, all else being equal, the more money you have, the easier it is to make more of it. It's like a marathon that gets easier as you go on. Even the wealthy acknowledge it: "The first million is the hardest." So we have (or had) a progressive system of taxation to attempt to counter the natural flow of wealth toward the wealthy.


I disagree. A threshold amount of wealth makes it easier to make more, sure. But IMO that threshold is low (i.e. enough to cover the basics of life). Rich people can lose wealth far faster, and far more easily than poor, trust me. The difference is that people who are capable of becoming wealthy are generally able to make more (through sensibly investing their cash and working hard in good jobs)


Rich people can lose wealth far faster, and far more easily than poor, trust me.

It is a tautology to say that you can lose more money the more money you have, because anyone (rich or poor) can simply choose to throw it away. That doesn't change the mathematical fact that interest compounds and that more wealth translates into more income in our economic system.


Complete agreement. I've been writing about the mathematics behind a well-known feedback effect in which ... get ready for a cliche ... the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer. Simply put, and as you point out, it's caused by compound interest:

http://arachnoid.com/wrong/index.html#Economics


> Rich people can lose wealth far faster, and far more easily than poor, trust me.

I don't know you, so I can't; can you provide numbers, or at least an argument with some intuitive strength, rather than just asserting it?


It's like a marathon that gets easier as you go on.

Marathons actually get a lot harder as you go on. Miles 0-16 are no different from regular short runs, 17-20 is hard and you start to flag, 21-24 is brutally difficult, and 24-26.2 is easier for psychological reasons.


Parent didn't say different.


Of course, the situation is different because we're smarter than they are ;)

First, we aren't the real elite. Founders are yeoman project managers at best, engineers are less than that-- not even able to raise a family in the Valley-- and even the venture capitalists are, for the most part, merely junior elite.

I'm not so sure about that claim, anyway, given that IQ is relative. The intellectual edge of the modern elite is quite thin, by historical standards.

The upper-class average IQ is generally held to be in the upper 100s-- no higher than 110-- even if class is defined to include social connections, respectability, and educational pedigree in addition to income.

So the upper class is only about 0.5-0.7 standard deviations smarter than the general population. That's not that much. They're also a small elite: less than 0.1% is running the world. For every Davos Man, there are 10,000 people wanting to see him fall. In any pool of that size, there are some fiercely smart people.

Compare that to the medieval elite, which had superior nutrition by far. They had what would be close to average height and intelligence today. Charlemagne (Charles the Great) was considered a giant. He was about 6 feet tall. Average people were a foot shorter, and were probably at an IQ level around 70-75.


> First, we aren't the real elite. Founders are yeoman project managers at best, engineers are less than that-- not even able to raise a family in the Valley-- and even the venture capitalists are, for the most part, merely junior elite.

I bet a lot of folks in France between 1789 and 1799 were paraphrasing, "I'm not a real aristo," or "I'm only a minor aristo."

Note that the junior elite is more likely to be left as scapegoats to the mob, while the real elites will have the resources to escape.

And you do realize, as a smart, hip, dare I say elite person, that the ;) was a signal of sarcasm.


> Average people were a foot shorter, and were probably at an IQ level around 70-75.

A foot shorter, yes (we know this from all sorts of physical evidence) but how do we know the average IQ?

They also might have spent their mental processing power differently. Medieval people trained their memory much more - I think this also extended to the average peasant, but I can't find a reference right now.


What I read from authors like Jared Diamond indicates to me that this is too often couched in ethnocentric terms and was heavily dependent on nutrition. In a highly extractive, oppressive state, I could believe people might be oppressed into a lower IQ. I'd also suspect that those regions would be out-competed by regions where the average people had better diets and whose intelligence is average.

In the wilds of Papua New Guinea, lots of highlanders meeting us there would consider us clumsy and stupid and wonder how we run a complex civilization.


"Outdated affirmative-action programmes should give way to schemes to help students based on the poverty of the applicant rather than the colour of his skin."

Tell that to Harvard and look at Caltech's Asian student enrollment numbers: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/339778/racial-quotas-...

Race should be left out of the qualifications for getting into university, but be prepared for those universities' Asian student populations to grow significantly, probably whether they are rich or poor. That's fine with me (I dislike racial quotas), but it wasn't mentioned.


If this distribution were considered problematic, controlling for family immigration history could correct it -- a sort of perfect anti-aristocracy.


Discrimination based on immigration history sounds extremely unjust. At that point you may as well base it on height.


It seems some of us are missing the implication of the article.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there really were a way to negate all advantages a person could be born into. No social networks, no additional wealth, no additional opportunities, etc. A place where everyone is born at 25 at the exact same moment: no friends, no past, no parents, no money. We can call this place 'Equalistan', population 1 million. Now, in Equalistan, there is still random genetic mutation. Some people are taller, some people have working memories that store more information, some have long-term memories that store more information, some solve problems by simple heuristics, some follow bodily signals for cues, etc. There's no such thing as 'smarter' or 'better' at birth in Equalistan, however, because these only make sense in hindsight. Each person in Equalistan just has a different, inherited strategy at living. Everyone just showed up at the same moment, 25 years old, no history, no buddies, but just an inherited genetic toolset.

Now, in Equalistan, there's a test to decide who gets the most resources. However, no one in Equalistan designed this test because, remember, we are making sure no one has any advantage; each person only has an inherited, random strategies from birth. So everyone takes this test and there is then a distribution of resource possession. But here is the upshot. Every person completely deserves the outcome they receive on the test. After all, the only thing being tested was each person's 'merits'. Now the question is, does it ever matter whether people "deserve" the amount of resources they possess?

The article isn't saying so much that meritocracy begets old-school elitism after assortative mating as much as it's saying that meritocracy itself is a terrifying thing. That it may be 100% the truth that people deserve the outcome they receive in life, but, who cares?


There are many strange and not necessarily good assumptions in this post.

1) How is it "merit" is strictly about genetic variation, rather than a combination of said genetic ability and a record of the use of it (achievement).

2) How is it that equality is strictly about starting position, rather than starting position resource allocation protection? One can have a meritocracy in which resource allocation is not about more-to better. It can in fact be about responsibility and accountability being greater. Not saying I agree with this, it is just a hole in the argument.

3) Resource distribution need not be 0-sum. There can in fact be more than 2 categories of "mine" and "not mine". There can be categories such as "available to everyone", "available to no one", and variations on "available to some". [1]

4) deserves is always and strictly a moral argument. There is no justification of deserves that doesn't at some point refer directly to axioms (morals). Therefore we again get to assumptions that need be discussed.

[1] Here in lies all the interesting stuff. Interplay between "some people get access" and "mine" categories of resources are where all discussions like this are really happening. How you define "some people get access" really can change the end result of "mine" for various actors. Similarly, "everyone gets access", in reality, is very tricky. For instance you could claim, and be mostly right, that everyone gets access to computers (via public libraries etc). Yet, not everyone gets access to training in effective computer use - that is reserved for "some people get access", where the rules are 'has enough money for proper training' (aka defining access rules on how much is already in your "mine" resoures). It is a complicated interplay.


Whoops, let me unpack.

1) That 'merit' is based on genetic variation was purely for the sake of illustration. Of course this is not the case in reality. Yet to boil down the problem to where we artificially limit the factors can help expose the real issue. In Equalistan, the fictitious illustration, everyone showed up at 25 with no history or connections. They immediately took a test. The genetic variation is just to show that random mutations can produce very varied outcomes. In the real world, the situation is inconceivable worse. You have genetic ability, mentorship, poetical power, network connections, wealth, random physical events, etc, that all affect outcomes.

2) Although, again, the example given was purely artificial, it is not so clear that personal 'accountability' or 'responsibility' is something that someone can help. A person with a super-charged frontal cortex will be very 'accountable' or 'responsible' with their abilities. The knock-on effects of stewardship of traits are very much the cause of other traits, whether inherited genetically or contextually (via parents or social structures). But I might be missing what you're saying here.

3) Resource distribution, you're right, is not zero-sum. In fact, on an absolute basis, there is no reason why anyone should ever write an article about injustice of outcomes given that overall standards of living are unbelievable high for people at large, and relative to past ages, although still very far form optimal. But this isn't the point of the article. Relative distribution of resources is the issue. But here 'resources' isn't necessarily physical things, it's anything limited. Power is zero sum, no matter what, and is still a resource to be distributed.

4) Yes, 'deserves' is fully-loaded, and that was the point of mentioning it. We somehow, for some bizarre reason feel that some people 'deserve' things and others do not and we should try to make sure people only have what they 'deserve'. But, you're right, this is nuts, at what point could we possible say that someone can really claim they did something independent of chance to have some moral justification to some resource, power or otherwise? Never. If you are hardworking--how can you separate that from genes plus context. If you are smart, how are you anything other than your inborn ability plus instruction. So I'm not saying some people don't deserve stuff, I'm saying this whole notion of deserving anything is ridiculous. Justification of outcomes as anything other than randomness is just what elitism is.


This article isn't really about railing against meritocracy so much as it is about promoting equality of opportunity. I ended up agreeing with much of it, but based on the title I sure didn't expect to.


"Using one-generation measures of social mobility—how much a father’s relative income influences that of his adult son—America does half as well as Nordic countries, and about the same as Britain and Italy, Europe’s least-mobile places."

Good, because of course I would want my income to influence that of my children. Yes, yes, I would want them to work hard and be curious and chart their own path, etc., but because I'm their father I'm going to try and stack the deck in their favor as high as I can possibly stack it.

And let's not kid ourselves - everybody who cares about their children, no matter what their political inclination or relative level of wealth, tries to do exactly the same thing. From the hedge-fund billionaire to the immigrant janitor.


I don't think anyone thinks that it's wrong to try and give your children a better position in life than they would be able to achieve through their ability alone, just that it's beneficial to society as a whole to minimize this effect. Prisoner's dilemma and all that.


Yes, but that's precisely the definition of what a meritocracy is not.

Here's the thing: do you want to stack the deck so that only your children have such favor, to the extent you are able, or do you want to stack the deck so that all children have such favor, again to the extent of your ability? Yes, of course, if it's an either-or choice then you'd go with your kids. But if you weren't forced to make such a choice, which would you go with?


Most of the arguments over our meritocracy come down to a matter of semantics. People seem to have wildly different definitions of a meritocracy. If you define (as I do) a meritocracy as a society in which power is given according to ability, then a society in which there are educational disadvantages for the poor is nonetheless still a meritocracy, albeit an educationally-unequal meritocracy. A society can be both a meritocracy and have poor social mobility. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive (though in some cases they can be).

Yes, it is true that today's society is by no means a pure meritocracy. Connections matter. That is unlikely to ever change. The problem of "who you know matters" is a problem of information - people would rather hire a slightly-below-competent friend than a supposedly-competent stranger because their friend is a known quantity.


There are two parts to both “merit” and “cracy”. Merit can be thought of as your abilities and talents or as your willingness to work hard. “Kratein” means to rule (i.e. have responsibilities, make decisions), but in this context it’s often seen as earning money (i.e. having a comfortable life style).

I would say that in an ideal meritocracy, the people with the most knowledge, abilities and intelligence should be the ones making the decisions and carrying the responsibilities. The willingness to work hard, however, should determine income, luxury and comfort.

The problem, of course, is that the powerful usually try to make themselves and their friends wealthy, but maybe this separation of the idea of meritocracy into (knowledge/ability = power/decisions) and (hard work = wealth/comfort) is what we as a society should strife for.

Thoughts?


I would consider spending some time with Plato's Socratic dialogue The Republic if you haven't already.

The tension of a timocracy devolving into an oligarchy depends greatly on the concept of justice in play at the time. I often hear in the valley "work hard, play hard" as a justification of oligarchic excess, when it should actually be "work hard, work harder" or "work hard, play less".


This is really strange in my opinion. We should make it harder for rich children to get a good eduction and easier for poor children? Really? Why not make it harder for bright students to get good grades and easy for dumb students to get good grades? That would lead to greater "equality" too.


The fact that someone on a site like hacker news (which I like consider are on the more intelligent side) would make a comparison like this, deeply disturbs me. We clearly have fundamentally different world views. (edit: I don't want this to sound like davidirch shouldn't have that opinion, just that it's easy to assume people will share your opinion)

I don't understand how you can be against what seems to be a completely reasonable proposition to me, that everyone should get a fair chance, regardless of where they start from.

I don't see any of this as making it harder for rich children to get a good education, except to remove situations where they currently have an (in my opinion) unfair advantage, like expensive tutoring aimed towards helping them pass exams, which is not available to many.

In fact, the precise aim here is to help bright students get good grades, and dumb ones get bad grades, which is the exact opposite of the comparison you seem to be making!


The following are mutually exclusive:

a) All children have equal opportunity.

b) Parents are able to spend money on their children.

I've spoken with many people who are in favor of both a) and b) and don't see the cognitive dissonance, but from this:

> like expensive tutoring aimed towards helping them pass exams, which is not available to many.

I guess you really favor a) over b). Unless your point was that exams should be selected to minimize the influence of last minute cram efforts which disproportionally benefit those with expensive tutors, in which case I might agree with you.


Excellent point. I certainly favour a) over b), but in the real world we need to appreciate there is a balance here. The aim should be to limit the effectiveness of parental help by giving 80% of the benefit to all children.

In regards to b), not all help is monetary in nature. Some of it can be in the form of social favours, familiarity of cultural norms (national, company and industry culture) and expectations etc.


1. Tutoring does not make a dumb person smart. Your IQ does not grow because you have a good teacher.

2. Complaining about people not having a fair chance in an age where everybody has access to the internet (which is pretty much all human knowledge) is just wrong.

3. You don't need college to rise to the top - that's just a myth (check out Thiel Fellowship website, they have lot's of materials on this topic).

4. The fact that you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they lack intelligence.


2. How many students aged 6-12 do you know that are willing to voluntarily spend time learning and studying? Zero?

Don't kid yourself. Just because knowledge and information is out there and accessible for free doesn't mean a child will have the ability and motivation to seek it out on their own. They're children, after all. What and how they learn will largely depend on parents and school.

3. You don't need a plane to get from New York to London. There are ships. You can even sail across the Atlantic! (there must be a fancy Latin term for this fallacy?)


Firstly, I hoped I made clear I didn't think the fact someone disagreed with me made them stupid.

Secondly, lots of people spend a lot of money on tutoring. I believe it helps people get significantly higher exam results, which then allows entry into significantly better universities. Do you disagree?


"except to remove situations where they currently have an (in my opinion) unfair advantage"

How would you do that?


Making University education free won't solve the problem.

If Education was free, entrance exams would be much more difficult. Rich kids could still pass the exams, because their parents would pay for more tutoring/education.


India uses strict exam-based entrance exams. US doesn't. Admission criteria can be lotteries above minimum standards, or designed to choose the students who responded most to the level of investment they got (a bit harder to measure)


None of the proposals were about that. They propose relying more on intelligence tests instead of the current SAT that can be gamed with money. Also, having varying college fees based on whether you are rich or poor also makes sense.


Whichever rule set you choose, you're always going to disenfranchise someone. What about people with a rich parent who doesn't invest in their education? Under your system, education would be unavailable to them because they would be a poor person being charged as a rich one.


Do you also think someone should take the money away from the rich child and give it to the paycheck-baby welfare mom's dad's-run-away child?

I have noticed lots of robin hoods in the world today. Maybe a true communistic and socialistic society would work if we just gave it a proper chance? If everyone just shared one bank account, all suffering would end?


Google "Just World Fallacy"


While this article makes many good points:

"The other great unfairness has to do with the preferences that elite American universities give to well-connected children, either because their parents went to the university themselves or because they have given money."

"An educational institution should focus on attracting the best people, and then work out how to finance the poorer people in that category."

====

Legacy admissions usually come with legacy donations. These donations can be in the millions each year for an organization like Harvard, which in turn pays the tuition of the poorer people in the category.

The issues of legacy admissions and affirmative action are pretty closely linked. So to address one part of the issue without looking at the other is not quite fair.


The premise of the article is faulty, and the problem overstated.

First, the author has to sleight-of-hand his way into his argument. He's worried that the "elite" will use their money to ensure that their children get such a leg-up on the non-elite children that the non-elite children won't be able to compete and will become (I guess?) the modern equivalent of feudal peasants. Of course, he doesn't present any evidence that this is happening. He states that "the top 1% have seen their incomes soar", but this isn't a statement of a problem.[1]

While it seems intuitive that privileged children will do better than non-privileged children, and even that a cadre of privileged children could keep the non-privileged children non-privileged for eternity, this just doesn't jibe with reality.

For example, across just three generations, the complete loss of inherited wealth is nearly 90%. That means the great-grand children of nearly every founder who had a big exit will never see any of that money. (Note that this same argument is often made with respect to corporations as a basis for stringent anti-trust regulation. But, pick any 50 year increment of the DJIA and see how many companies on the list in the starting year were on the list at the end.) The "problem" of perpetual wealth a specter.

Sure, you can point to the Rothschilds as an example of dynastic wealth. But (conspiracy theories aside) how many “wealthy” Rothschilds are there? Do they wield any real power? What about some of the other richest people in history? If dynastic wealth is a true problem, why aren’t the Hugheses, the Gettys, the Rockafeller’s the Carnegies, the Vanderbilts, the Mellons, and the Fords dominating world politics, finance or culture? (Interesting aside: many of these titans were actually dirt poor themselves before building their own fortunes.)

It’s easy to take a small, 30-year slice of history and claim that, if things continue this way, surely the world will be hell in just a few more short years. Fortunately, it almost never works out that way.

[1] See pg's article re "money is not wealth" here: http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html)


My first thought on the subject, as someone writing a history book on part of China's borderlands was the (still-current) ancient Confucian government-meritocracy's simple anti-entrenchment practice of forcibly posting leaders to areas in which they were neither native nor had family, and shifting them periodically. To this day, it's how China continues to operate. Totally effective? No. But pretty good.


So I love this topic. This is a big deal now, and looking at trends in demography, incomes, and wealth, it's going to be a yet bigger deal for many years to come. But is there something that can be done? Is there a tech/business solution that helps alleviate the mutual exclusive quality that bingobangobongo mentions? If you could crack that, you could probably be make a big impact for a long time.


This article seems to misunderstand the definition of merit as something related to education or money. In a true meritocracy your standing is based on your value to others. If you do valuable work, the market rewards you. If not, then not. In capitalism, the market decides what is valuable; it seems to be pretty efficient at it.


As long as money and power give a leg up to the dumber children of smart people, it's not really a meritocracy.

Exhibit A: George W. Bush


Was HW notably smarter? W wasn't an academic, but that is diffferent from dumb.


From other comment threads, I've come up with "A Modest Proposal" of my own, largely derived from Aldous Huxley. I can eliminate all contradiction of "meritocracy entrenching itself."

Meritocracies tend to lose their purity due to our propensity for passing on advantages to our friends and relatives. Over time, this yields something less like a meritocracy and more like aristocracy -- though it will perniciously continue to identify as a "meritocracy." Eventually, the contractions give rise to social upheaval. This is generally chaotic and bad, but the good news is that we can now have both the technology and social engineering know-how completely prevent this.

Simply engineer humans and human society such that the ruling classes really are smarter, fitter, and in every way superior to the lower classes. Relocate sources of fresh, nutritious food to big box stores in newly developed neighborhoods only accessible by car. Re-price food generally, such that once normal essentials like fresh produce are now luxury items. Furthermore, use subsidies to flood the market with empty calories in the form of synthetic starch, fat, and sugar, making it a concerted effort and additional expense over market norms to afford nutritious food conducive to intellectual development. (Not to mention subtle and complex gustatory stimulation.) In fact, make it economically advantageous in the short term for a household to buy food that makes its members sicker, fatter, and stupider. Use the media and market forces, such that companies are motivated by higher margins to aggressively market food -- both that of poorer quality to the less affluent and that of higher quality to the more affluent -- so that market forces directly reinforce the goals of the program, greatly leveraging (by orders of magnitude) the government subsidy of raw ingredients with private money.

While doing this, flood the media with trash, to cut off lower classes from excessive intellectual stimulation. Promulgate an ideology that attaches attractiveness and desirability with anti-intellectual attitudes, with the goal of raising the value of subconscious and tribal signaling over actual intellectual accomplishment. Close libraries, eliminating them as a source of unregulated intellectual stimulation. Also put additional pressure on the remaining libraries as locations for ad-hoc social work by eliminating funding for alternative places for underclass adults and children. Grant de-facto (but deniable) media monopolies to create market forces conducive to more trash content produced for the biggest audience at the lowest cost while discouraging the production of competing intellectually stimulating content. Certainly suppress, where it is possible to do so deniably, any media which is not subject to the above market forces. (Public radio and television, for example.)

Also recognize that such a program will succeed in suppressing a large proportion of the population, but additional measures will be needed to suppress the excess population of dangerous intellectually competent persons which will still crop up. Again, market forces can be leveraged with the aid of the right societal manipulations. Push a "nerd-culture" which is misunderstood by (and therefore isolated from) the mainstream, but which (outwardly) welcomes intellectuals. Manipulate this nerd culture, such that its population either largely discounts politics, or is attracted to fringe politics of no consequence. Also attach "coolness" in this segment of the populace with obsessive attention to technical and otherwise misunderstood esoteric pursuits which take up time and energy and act to distance this group from the mainstream. Realize also, that such persons are economically valuable, and further harness their economic potential by promulgating workaholic tendencies in the form of a "work hard, play hard" ideology. Create a norm of long hours, and provide on-site facilities to encourage this. Also promulgate the idea of "side projects" with the idea that the only worthy programmers are passionate enough to have such, and so create social pressures to dissipate yet more time and energy. Market forces can again be harnessed through the mechanism of a "startup scene" which keeps the youngest and most energetic intellectuals working long hours. Synergistic to such a scene and to the overall meritocratic ideology, also establish a nerd underclass sharing the same outward cultural trappings, but stuck in underpaid dead-end jobs or overpaid corporate dead-end jobs.

Note also that the promulgation of a nerd underclass means that many of the nerd/mainstream bifurcation strategies can also be applied within the nerd segment itself, further increasing the control of dangerous excess intelligence. Do this by also promulgating anti-intellectual attitudes within the nerd segment itself. Glorify the unquestioned parroting of memes from certain nodes on the Internet as indicators of cleverness and coolness. For whichever segment of the nerd populace that will buy it, place greater status to faster access to such memes over true skepticism and creativity. Also promulgate ideologies which elevate unquestioned ridicule as a kind of magical ultimate good, so long as it's funny, and which are easily applicable to suppressing complex and controversial topics through noise. Similar effects can be attained with the notion of the intellectual transcendence erroneously placed on a hazy notion of "irony," thereby causing susceptible persons to insulate themselves from reality and issues of social consequence in a bubble of their own smugness.

By throwing up so many dietary and socially engineered cultural barriers/traps working against actual personal development, the overall effect will be twofold. On one hand, the moneyed elites will have the resources to easily escape and side-step most of these traps, resulting in their population actually being largely superior, thereby placing the truth on their side. On the other hand, any individuals who manage to escape all of the above traps are likely to be superior individuals as well, making it easy for the existing elite to co-opt their talents, additionally bolstering the truth of the meritocratic ideology.

I think I have shown that the above scheme is not only extremely robust, but possesses other striking beneficial qualities, some of which may be unprecedented in human history. The scheme can be thought of as a disguised aristocracy which maintains the trappings of meritocracy through the use of numerous disguised and subliminal barriers to personal and intellectual advancement. Most uncontrolled intellectual and personal advancement is handily suppressed, and the remaining advancement is channeled in ways which produce considerable economic gain for the good of society as a whole. For the proportion of the population for which these barriers to personal advancement fail, absorption into the elite diffuses any potential for social upheaval while bolstering the power of the elite and its strength within its stated meritocratic ideology. In particular, this scheme has considerable advantages over a naive meritocracy, in that it successfully suppresses most social mobility while avoiding the ideological and actual contradictions that arise in following generations. By deliberately but deniably engineering the actual inferiority of the lower classes, ideological contradictions are eliminated. In this way, it's "the best of both worlds" -- achieving the social stability of aristocracy while avoiding its long term diffusion of talent and sustaining the ideological cover of "meritocracy" indefinitely. I hope the "merits" of such a system are self evident, and that such a system is adopted by our society in the near future.

(Addendum - This system is not without flaws. For one thing, it can be easily distinguished from a true meritocracy from its lack of social mobility. However, dissent resulting from this information can be readily suppressed by the same mechanisms outlined above.)


Every elite in history has called itself a "meritocracy". Who defines "merit"? The elite. They will always look out for themselves in doing so.

If anything, the "dumb", brutal aristocracy of medieval Europe had more of a claim of innate superiority ("merit") than the current elite. Because of superior nutrition and better working conditions, they were half a foot taller, probably 20 IQ points smarter, and overall more physically, aesthetically, and intellectually fit than the peasants.

If you're "in the know" about these sorts of things, you realize that raw intelligence isn't what's valued by our society. It's still about connections. More specifically, it's about adopting the behavioral patterns and attitudes of well-connected people.

What we actually have in the US is some degree of social mobility within the middle class. The parasitic upper class is still a problem, and resistant to improvement. The lower class (which is about half) is still screwed. But it's relatively easy to move from the 50th percentile to the 95th percentile either through unusual talent or extreme sacrifice.


Also: merit is not one-dimensional. Which merit is being measured? Merit at what?

I've noted for a while that a significant fraction of those successful in business, especially in certain sectors, are basically glorified street hustlers. They're very good at rapidly building social networks, smoke and mirrors, and shell games that create the illusion of value. The game they play could be called "lie, leverage, flip."

Is this the merit that we want?

I would argue that all societies are meritocracies for some value of "merit." Defining merit in any objective sense is not easy. In fact, it's probably capital-H Hard and reduces to the same effectively-infinite-dimensional search problem solved by evolution itself.

I think meritocracy is a great example of a simple idea that is incredibly appealing but wrong in a way that creates pathologies. Economics and biology are just chock full of that stuff.


I've noted for a while that a significant fraction of those successful in business, especially in certain sectors, are basically glorified street hustlers.

Exactly. The Economist article lost me at the point where it said this:

The top 1% have seen their incomes soar because of the premium that a globalised high-tech economy places on brainy people.

No, the top 1% have seen their incomes soar because they have been allowed to game the system in order to siphon wealth from other people's pockets into their own. Exhibit A: Wall Street investment banks.


The top level comment mentioned extreme sacrifice as a way to move to the 95th percentile. I argue that investment bankers also make extreme sacrifice to stay where they are, in the form of 80 hour weeks, horrible family life, etc.

Anger and jealousy toward the "1%" is a dangerous road for a country to go down. Besides, without investment banks and private equity firms, an essential part of the economy -- namely, buying and selling companies -- would be missing and we would be worse off.

The place where you should direct your ire is toward corrupt government policymakers who allow corporate interests to override the basis of our civil society, which is equal protection under the law. Corporations do not want free markets; they want government-sponsored monopolies. We the people should hold our government responsible for succumbing to corporate special interests instead of blaming the companies once they are granted such privilege.


You cannot simply blame the government policymakers. Civil servants make the policies based on Congressional direction. Congress develops laws due to public pressure which is often led by lobby efforts. Who funds the the lobbyists?

The entire society is guilty for the current state of economic affairs as civil servants don't stand up to Congress, Congress wants to get re-elected, the public is easily distracted, and the 1% or .001% fund the lobbies.


I argue that investment bankers also make extreme sacrifice to stay where they are, in the form of 80 hour weeks, horrible family life, etc.

I wasn't claiming investment bankers don't make sacrifices. I was claiming that they don't create wealth; they just siphon it from other people's pockets into their own. The fact that they work 80 hour weeks so they can siphon more wealth doesn't make it right.

without investment banks and private equity firms, an essential part of the economy -- namely, buying and selling companies -- would be missing and we would be worse off.

Investment banks do make money on mergers and acquisitions, but that's not where they make most of it. Most of it is made by finding suckers to take the wrong end of zero sum trades.

Corporations do not want free markets; they want government-sponsored monopolies.

Quite true; they want them so much that they are willing to pay good money for them.

We the people should hold our government responsible for succumbing to corporate special interests instead of blaming the companies once they are granted such privilege.

I disagree; we should blame both. The corporations for buying government favors, and the government for allowing them to be for sale.


> Exhibit A: Wall Street investment banks.

Then you're thinking of the top 0.01%.

The people right at the 99th percentile are still considered peons by Wall Street investment banking standards. And the kind of money that puts you at 1% (about $500k annually for a household) isn't enough to get you special access to powerful politicians. That costs a lot more.

I agree with you that we have a corrupt elite. But I prefer we use realistic statistics in defining them. The people right at the 99th percentile are not the problem.


People use "1 percent" as a euphemism for the global elite because (a) it's fewer symbols, and (b) it's not natural for us to think of such low proportions (e.g. 0.005%).

You are absolutely right, by the way. The enemies are the Davos Men, not the people who worked their asses off to get a few million.


Someone with ten million in the bank is a peasant in a nice suit to the people you're talking about.


"What we actually have in the US is some degree of social mobility within the middle class."

The article seems to contradict that:

"Using one-generation measures of social mobility—how much a father’s relative income influences that of his adult son—America does half as well as Nordic countries, and about the same as Britain and Italy, Europe’s least-mobile places."


Michael is saying people within the US middle class can do better or worse than their parents, but children are unlikely to rise or fall to a completely different class. This is orthogonal to any comparison with Sweden.


"What we actually have in the US is some degree of social mobility within the middle class."

That pretty much describes the situation in the UK - very few people describe themselves as working class these days, you can't really become proper upper class (although your grandchildren might) so we're all left debating the silly distinctions between lower, middle and upper middle class!

[NB I usually joke to my wife that the easiest way of spotting "proper" upper middle class men is their trousers - nobody else seems to wear cords in quite those distinctive colours of pink and startling bright green.]


Whether or not the term "meritocracy" is thrown around as propaganda is a separate issue from whether or not we should want to live in a meritocracy, which is what the article was about. In fact, most people don't want to live a pure meritocracy, as that would for example preclude the freedom to give gifts to others (as gifts are by definition unearned).

I think one property that our economy ought have as we head into a future of machines increasingly displacing human workers is this: If all human work in the economy stopped, wealth should converge to an approximately fair distribution, preferably within a small number of lifetimes.


And in a world without work, what is "fair"? It will almost certainly go to those who own the machines.


I almost wrote "uniform", but that seemed simplistic since it didn't take into account factors like age, number of children, etc. But if the majority of the wealth goes to the few owners of the machines, then the economy certainly doesn't have the property I'm talking about.


>Every elite in history has called itself a "meritocracy". Who defines "merit"?

I'd concede that the word itself may have been used questionably to capitalize on the associated ideological goodwill. However, simply stating it may have been abused, does not automatically preclude an actual meritocratic group from existing.

For example, while many generally dishonest individuals (eg sociopaths) may profess to being totally honest, it does not follow that a generally honest person, does not exist.

Similarly, it's quite possible to build something close to a true meritocracy. How do I know? Because this happened at my previous company. Merit, at it's core, was defined by outputs. Nothing more. Was it perfect? No, but we are dealing with messy humans, and subjectivity obviously occurs, but the point is to actively and continually encourage a culture of objectivity.

Over many years the track record bore this out.

There were those that started in 'serfdom' and yet over time, rose up. Actually, not always "up", as in traditional line management sense, but certainly in responsibilities assigned to them. Hence they received associated increases in compensation, benefits and peer respect.

Many know the theory, but how well it works in practice, depends on the ability of those leading, to truly believe and continually act in a way that promotes and entrenches the behavior, so that it becomes the culture.

An example, we had (and they still do), employees on the exec management team that started their professional journey's as junior call center agents. Conversely, those persons that partook in politicized self promotion, tended to enjoy a rather brief tenancy at the company. Either they were actively pushed out by peers and managers, or they passively drifted apart on their own accord, as their natural skills of manipulation and politicking, bore scarce fruits.

In summary, while perhaps uncommon, it is possible to for a meritocracy to flourish given excessive care and thoughtfulness is spent designing fair and useful incentives and metrics. Shallow or ill-conceived incentives and insincere leadership, could set the organization on a ruinous path over the longterm.


In summary, while perhaps uncommon, it is possible to for a meritocracy to flourish given excessive care and thoughtfulness is spent designing fair and useful incentives and metrics.

When I get back to blogging (probably in a week or so) one of the topics I want to hit is Smart People x War.

War is the stupidest thing imaginable: a negative-sum slugfest. It's inhumane, unjust, and wrong. So, naturally, most Smart People hate it.

However, what is the best thing for Smart People? For an irreparable fissure to occur within the Elite, splitting it into two or more pieces that want nothing more to destroy each other. (This tends to result in War.) If you look at history, the times of greatest meritocracy are also times of war.

When was the golden age of American scientific and technological R&D? The Cold War.

If you let the Elite function as one, they collude to keep Smart People down. They take all the resources and society stagnates. If you rip them in two and put the halves in mortal conflict, it creates jobs for Smart People.

So there is a weird symbiosis going on. War itself is horrendous, but the only thing that gives Smart People a chance (opportunities to ascend, rather than being preemptively shot down by a defensive Elite) is severe crisis, which War tends to produce.

Capitalism is supposed to have this effect (fissures in the Elite, creating competition and opportunity for middle-class talent) but corporate capitalism doesn't, because even if firms compete economically, they collude on who's cool and who's not. See also: VC-istan, which is more like a postmodern corporation (with founders as semi-independent PMs) than what it claims to be.


When I first read the title I thought this would be an article about governments impeding meritocracy not a screed against it. I guess we are running out of problems if meritocracy is one. Lots of immigrants come here work hard and are very successful. Virtually anyone willing to work hard will succeed but people have different priorities. As for always comparing the US to Nordic countries, if you compare them to Massachusetts they look bad, if you compare them to California they look insignificant and then of course there is the rest of the country.


Meritocracy is not a problem with government, it is the solution. This badmouthing of Meritocracy is a way for the ones who are in power but don't deserve to be there as a way of maintaining that power.

On the other hand, if you make it too easy for a young person to climb the ladder (working like a dog), than what's the point of getting to the top? There are no benefits to being there except you will be living a life with more hours at the office than ever before. The reason people work to climb the latter is because there is a reward where you can work less and tell others what to do, and they can't dethrone you.

Remove that reward, and you may find a population regarding climbing the career latter as foolishness. Why would you want to take on a second job, for no extra pay, where the workload increases exponentially with the new upstarts out of college, and the right to take it easy is gone. Like a second job at McDonalds, the moment you take it easy, you are replaced. Why strive to get that?


"Meritocracy is not a problem with government, it is the solution. This badmouthing of Meritocracy is a way for the ones who are in power but don't deserve to be there as a way of maintaining that power"

The myth of meritocracy is more akin to predestination. A person is in power or successful, therefore they were more deserving of the position than others, regardless of privilege, nepotism, special opportunity, luck, originating class, etc.

There is a vast difference between the people who push to make society MORE of a meritocracy than the people who push the false narrative that we ARE a meritocracy, especially those who use themselves as evidence of this.


Merit == effort? I don't think so.


Merit == Value to others. Most of the time, that will require effort though.


Effort is a multiplier. It's not a term. That's why "merit == effort" is a very bad idea without more elaboration. As mentioned in the recent Bitcoin thread, getting 1000 people together to dig a hole is costly, but not necessarily that valuable. The real trick is, exactly which hole, where and when. Depending on those factors, the hole could literally be worth nothing or worth millions.

All things being equal, effort can well be a deciding multiplier, however.


Good academic training/education used to be inaccessible to the poor. This is no longer true. The internet is busy changing all of that. Home schooling at any level has now become feasible. The difference that remains, however, is the difference in outcome for children due to family breakdown. That has, however, nothing to do with income, and everything with the views on marriage with which the person was educated. To the extent that keeping children away from the often rampant depravity prevalent in the government-run education system will preserve their home-instilled views on marriage, NOT expanding the school system will contribute to improving the outcome for the demographic that has less trouble with marriage breakdown and other social ills. In my opinion, it is about time to remove the control of the depravity-encouraging politicians from anything related to education.




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