Correct, whoever made the decision to create ICE, as it became a security risk that lead to deaths. Glad that's what you said, and no other valid interpretation.

> it became a security risk that lead to deaths

While there were deaths, I didn't see any that were the result of a "security risk". I did see a whole lot of stupid people doing stupid things, and none of them were ICE agents, so I'm surprised there weren't more deaths.

> I did see a whole lot of stupid people doing stupid things, and none of them were ICE agents, so I'm surprised there weren't more deaths.

Random masked goons in unmarked cars trying to arrest people is pretty damn stupid, yes. Same goons putting themselves in front of cars, and shooting through side windows of cars driving away, or shooting at random people on the street, is pretty damn stupid.

I'm going to provide a bit of nuance here, but would like to clarify I am not a fan of ICE's tactics in the slightest. Yes, the ICE agent was stupid for standing in front of the car, just as Renee Good was stupid for hitting the gas while he was standing in front of her car. At that moment, he became 100% legally justified to shoot. The limits of human cognitive performance significantly limit how fast your brain can send the signal to your hand to stop shooting, and the stop-signal happened when he was standing by her side window. In a split-second, he was shooting to defend himself against a reasonably perceived threat of being run over. Yes, it could have been completely avoided by both individuals, but "shooting through side windows of cars driving away" is misleading. The Alex Pretti incident, completely, totally unjustified. Just wanted to provide a bit of nuance from the perspective of someone who studies self-defense encounters.

That's a lot of words to cover for being intentionally obtuse.

The ICE agent was 100% in the wrong, completely, totally unjustified in murdering Renee Good.

Nothing you wrote changes that.

I'm not arguing the necessity of him having to shoot, but there is absolutely enough reasonable fear for it to be legally justified.

Yes, let's have no federal immigration enforcement entity in this country, novel idea.

Well, while I don't know you personally. Most working people are older than ICE.

It's actually a relatively new agency and clearly not effective.

It's a relatively new agency in name (2003), but it's not really all that new. It was formerly known as the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) and U.S. Customs.

What would an effective immigration enforcement agency look like, in your opinion?

I think we can agree that when they're executing innocent citizens in the street, the agency is no longer effective.

I agree with you. What would an effective immigration enforcement agency look like?

A little know fact is that Biden deported more illegal immigrants then previous presidents with smaller budget and without killing them. He also deported higher amount if actual criminals in the set. So, you know, whatever before ICE is now was more effective.

Also, the abuses and violence are staggering. And they managed to deport or mistreat actual citizens, because they did not cared. Again, not effective.

Here is the problem - conservative and right wing people use "effective" as euphemism for "we want to see as much cruelty and abuse as possible".

There are literally only 2 options.

1. Have an enforcement agency going around killing people, and locking people up who have valid reason to exist in country waiting for status updates.

OR

2. Complete anarchy and chaos, monkeys flying planes, elephants driving taxis, dogs marrying cats.

Actually you know what, I reckon give the elephants a go.

Well, that is literally how the country was founded; it would just be going back to its roots!