> the current language of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) allows students to get expansive accommodations with little more than a doctor's note.
Isn't that... good? What else would be expected if you have a disability, and need accomodations?
The Reason article leaves out some helpful context from the original Atlantic article:
> In 2013, the American Psychiatric Association expanded the definition of ADHD. Previously, the threshold for diagnosis had been “clear evidence of clinically significant impairment.” After the release of the DSM‑5, the symptoms needed only to “interfere with, or reduce the quality” of, academic functioning.
So it's dramatically easier to get said doctor's note these days.
Being diagnosed with the disorder does not automatically qualify as a disability. This article, and many people in this thread seem not to be able to distinguish between the rising rate of diagnoses, and being disabled or needing accommodation.
I have been diagnosed as being several different types of neuro-divergent, but I am also not qualified as disabled and do not need or want any special dispensation. I would say that I have been relatively successful in life by almost anyone's metrics without it.
There is still an enormous advantage in understanding yourself, even without the expectation of accommodation or medication. I was also, sadly, not diagnosed until my mid-40's.
I would have had a much easier time getting to where I am today if diagnostic criteria and awareness among clinical staff were better when I was younger.
>I would have had a much easier time getting to where I am today if diagnostic criteria and awareness among clinical staff were better when I was younger.
When I have thoughts like this, I like to theorize about causality. If I had had an easier time when I was young, would I still have developed the qualities that helped me get to where I am now in the first place?
Have you gotten one of these notes yourself? It's not trivial. It's a huge pain in the ass, and everyone along the path is saying, "I don't believe you".
I have, and my experience does not match yours. It was extremely trivial and was little more than (1) booking a psych appointment, (2) filling out an intake ADHD questionnaire at home (which can easily be filled out to give whatever diagnosis you'd desire), (3) meeting the psych & getting a formal diagnosis, and (4) picking up my Rx from the pharmacy.
This is not what they're describing. Have you ever gone through the process of receiving an accommodation at a university? It is significantly more challenging than just having a diagnosis. They will look for every single possible excuse to refuse you access. They will require you to repeatedly book new doctor's appointments to get extremely specific wording for any accommodation you may need. Your doctor will have to fill out multiple forms for the university. Then, for each class, you will have to meet with every professor you have to request your accommodations. Many of these professors will try to talk you out of using them, or find ways to get around them.
Dx out here required all those steps plus attestations from family and teachers, historical accounts, written narratives, a check in with the GP, bloodwork and blood pressure, and ongoing follow ups at least quarterly.
Plus all that happens before you get an accommodation, which is a wholly separate process.
If it turns out half of all people have something, it's just normal human stuff. Today's ADHD is likely a symptom of tiktoking your brain's serotonin out or some other chemical
Nonsense. This is Stanford. The admissions process filtered for highly academically successful students and then 38% of them claimed a disability which impairs their academic performance. It's bullshit of the most obvious kind.
Example, do you think someone that's hard of hearing can't meet the standard for a 'highly academically successful student"? Or someone that's color blind? Or someone that's blind? Or someone in a wheelchair?
You've missed the point. How does Stanford end up with 38% of their students claiming to have a disability while other schools only have 3%? Are the other schools illegally discrimating against these students, so that their only alternative is Stanford? Or is it possible that something anomalous is happening at Stanford?
While it doesn't explain the whole difference, it's not surprising that Stanford has a higher rate. First: the more demanding the environment the more likely you are to find (got example) milder ADHD to impact your life. Second: the more well off you are or more access to resources you have, the more likely you are to actually care to get diagnosed. Third: stressful environment can actually cause serious issues, suddenly. For non-education reasons I suddenly gained panic attacks while I was at uni and they took years to go away.
On the contrary, it’s very surprising. There’s no way that 38% of people are disabled by any definition of the word. 10× differences between the disability rate between schools simply should not exist.
Where does the idea/reasoning that highly academically successful students cannot have a disability come from?
I would go a step further and say there is probably a high chance that neurodivergent students are more academically successful, iff they did get to that level of education. And it's not impossible that they are overrepresented in that group of people.
And people may be intellectually gifted, and yet experience strong behavioral and social difficulties. Not that my own observation counts but I've met multiple people on the spectrum who were highly intelligent and "gifted" yet faced more adversity in life, i.e. for social reasons. It's controversial because it directly goes against the idea that we exist in a meritocracy.
People are going to cheat no matter what. To me, it's more important that the people who do need and deserve accomodations are able to get them though!
Nobody said that. They are saying or insinuating that 38% of successful students are unlikely to be disabled. That certainly was not the case as recently as a decade or two ago. People have not changed drastically, so what gives?
Change in diagnosis criteria, that doesn't mean people before weren't disabled.
You need to understand people with ADHD usually overcompensate to meet the academic performance needed and it is not sustainable in the long run.
It also doesn't mean they need accommodations, just that they are categorized as disabled in some way or form.
> They said that 38% of successful students are unlikely to be disabled.
Which is an unreasonable claim.
I have a disability that impairs many aspects of my life. I was still capable of getting through college and am successful in my career. Having a disability does not mean you can't do academics.
What does that have to do with the claim? It is very unlikely that 38% of Stanford students are actually disabled, and your success has nothing whatsoever to do with that.
The necessary doctor's note can be trivially purchased without any meaningful evidence of disability. I know a number of children of wealthy families with these notes. They don't even pretend to be disabled, possession of the note makes it beyond question.
Buying an advantage for your children in this way is widespread. This article suggests that it is even more widespread than I imagined.
So, let's say we make it more difficult to get "proof" of disability, something that requires more than just a doctor's note.
Won't these rich people also be able to trivially acquire these, while people who actually need accomodations will continue to struggle because it's difficult to prove they need something?
Yes. The amount of gaming and cheating in pursuit of school credential maxing is astonishing. It is an entire industry. Parents pay many thousands of dollars to "consultants" who help facilitate it.
Anecdotally this seems like it has become standard practice among the well-off families I know with children around college age. When everyone is doing it there is a sense that you have to do it too or you'll be left behind.
I would think so too. There is something else going though. It a system that relies partly on trust. A sort of moral asset with herd effects. It’s a system that can tolerate a certain amount of gaming, but when the threshold is surpassed, it becomes a failed system. It has to change, to the detriment of the justly entitled.
And that is the sad part, when that unstated assumption, that one may not lie, is broken past a threshold, it increases the transaction cost for everyone.
My dad at 50 got a disabled parking placard. He did have knee surgery, but he really didn't struggle with it about 4 months after his surgery. I asked him why he still had it - I got the impression that at this point he wanted his priority parking spot anyway. Didn't like driving around with him much after that.
I wouldn't hold that against him that much--the overabundance of handicapped parking spots is reason enough to game that one. It's ridiculous. My wife could have qualified for a placard because of her cancer and she was in a wheelchair for awhile, but we didn't bother getting one.
I once lived with a guy who had a valid disabled parking placard. But he didn't like to use it because he didn't feel like he really needed it. Once the apartment manager basically begged him to use it because parking was scarce in the complex and the disabled parking was under-utilized.
I don't think the dad necessarily sucks here. The dad didn't make up the system.
That's over the entire population, which includes the elderly. For the 18-34yo block, it's 8.3%, and you'd probably expect it even lower for ... well, the population that, to put it bluntly, succeeded in life enough to get into Stanford.
Edit: And to clarify, just to be fair, I can accept there are many things that would qualify as "a disability that the education system should care about" but which don't rise to the level of the hard binary classification of "disabled" that would show up in government stats. I'm just saying that the overall 25% figure isn't quite applicable here.
I would love to have experts look at the data of this self reported community survey vs the CDC's data.
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To the edit, I can agree.
We are talking ultimately what ADA classifies as a dissability. Which is different from what might be needed for driving (as an example).
ADA has requirements. Doctors have their definitions. They're being met.
If a doctor abuses it, then we should be going for the doctors. As was said in another comment, while they are human and susceptible, they also are the ones with the license.
Even 5% would be pushing it at a university. It's easy today to get a diagnosis for something like mild ADHD whether one has it or not, and everyone is on some kind of spectrum. Legitimacy aside, classifying mild, manageable conditions as disabilities that require special accommodations and/or medication is counter-productive long-term.
I have firsthand experience being diagnosed and prescribed medication for ADHD within about half an hour of self-reporting mild symptoms with a physician remotely, for one, so perhaps I'm more of an authority on this subject than most commenters here. I suppose it would be equally trivial to seek an ASD diagnosis, since Asperger's is now lumped in with autism and classified as a disability despite not being one.
I had a rather difficult time despite obviously having it (ie was late to the intake appointment). In particular it involved a questionnaire about current and childhood symptoms, and both myself and my parents had to answer it.
> I suppose it would be equally trivial to seek an ASD diagnosis, since Asperger's is now lumped in with autism and classified as a disability despite not being one.
I'm not sure about this one, but there is no treatment for ASD and so no particular reason to have a diagnosis, so there is probably less interest in giving you one.
> I have firsthand experience being diagnosed and prescribed medication for ADHD within about half an hour of self-reporting mild symptoms with a physician remotely
That's awfully convenient isn't it. The 38% of Stanford students claiming to be disabled must have a good reason for it while those of us who understand how easy it is to be diagnosed with a so-called "disability" must be lying. Do you honestly believe that roughly half of the people you meet need special accommodations to study and work?
Yes, because half the people I know do need special accommodations. Maybe if you didn't go out of your way to avoid disabled people you'd notice us when we exist.
> have firsthand experience being diagnosed and prescribed medication for ADHD within about half an hour of self-reporting mild symptoms with a physician remotely,
And that makes you competent to determine the value of the disability claims of others and the appropriate accommodations such folks should receive?
Really?
Then again, you are the eminent galaxy-wide expert on such things, aren't you bananalychee.
Will you honor my request to impregnate my wife and daughters so they can carry offspring that's so much more valuable than anyone else on the planet? Pretty please!
This question lacks nuance. Where do you draw the line? I'd draw one at suicide thoughts that you can't stop on your own and before seriously considering using any kind of psychoactive drugs for self-medication. Anything else IMO needs about as much medical intervention as a low fever case of common cold.
Oh, and once these two lines are back at comfortable distance you stop.
That's how most of the people in the world are, including the dearest friends and family. Most people's only motivation in life is to find a loophole to abuse. They will even convince themselves they are something they're not to achieve it.
Right. What I'm saying is that we've probably screwed up by creating a system that incentivizes people to "be disabled" even if they really are stretching the definition of disabled
I hope you realize that the students don’t think of themselves as “disabled” in the disparaging way you mean it. I have ADHD and I’m color blind. Both conditions make me “disabled” in some sense, and yet I went to college and have managed to have a job my whole adult life. Being “disabled” doesn’t mean “useless” or “incapable of doing anything” as you seem to imply.
I don't think you understand my position and you're certainly reading tone I didn't intend into my words
I am nearsighted, I am ADHD, I am hearing impaired in one ear, I am celiac. All of these are lifetime conditions that are not going anywhere
If glasses didn't exist, I would certainly be disabled. But let's be real, no one considers glasses a disability, even though glasses are just as important to a vision impaired person as a wheelchair is to a walking impaired person
Offering accommodations to people with disabilities is good. So you do that.
Then you recognize that not all disabilities that deserve accommodations are obvious so you establish some bureaucratic process that can certify people with these unobvious disabilities so they can receive the accommodations you meant for them to.
But the people you delegate to issue those certificates are... well, they're people. Some of them are not so discerning, some of them are not so bright, some of take pleasure in gaming the system or playing Robin Hood, some of them accept bribes and trade favors, some of them are averse to conflict.
Next thing you know, you've got a lot of people with certificates saying that they have unobvious disabilities that grant them accommodations. Like, way more than you would have expected and some whose certified disabilities are really unobvious.
Might the genuinely good system you put in place have been abused? How can you know? What can you do? And if it's not been gamed, then what the heck is going on that sooooo many people are disabled? That seems like it would reflect some kind of social crisis itself.
> Might the genuinely good system you put in place have been abused?
The system's resistance to abuse is one of its important characteristics. So if the system have been abused on that scale, the system probably wasn't good in the first place.
In a healthy society systems that are less tolerant to abuse still function. And in an unhealthy society only the systems resilient to malicious actors work.
Okay, the oposite would be, you put a stringent process on how to measure things. You have rigorous testing. These all take time and money, including lost income in time you need to take away, and money paid for the testing.
And you end up with people that could have had help to be successful, and not they're not being able to operate within the constraints.
So, what do you do then?
> then what the heck is going on that sooooo many people are disabled
Good question. We should study this and figure what the fuck we are messing up as a society... if only we had funding and also we had someone that could act with the findings and take action.
Looks like Stanford might be a good place to start. How's their funding situation?
> And you end up with people that could have had help to be successful, and not they're not being able to operate within the constraints.
> So, what do you do then?
You figure out what the equivalent of Blackstone's Ratio for this kind of accommodation is, and then proceed accordingly. If we declare that it's unacceptable for even a single legitimately disabled person to miss out on accommodations, then we should the nonsense and just give accommodations to everyone, explicitly.
Isn't that... good? What else would be expected if you have a disability, and need accomodations?