That’s true, but of the 65,063 deaths reported by the
GHM, at least 18,500 of them are children, 217 journalists, 120 academics, and 224 humanitarian aid workers.
And that 65k number does not include indirect deaths - i.e. deaths by starvation, or death from something that could have been easily survived if there were still hospitals instead of rubble. Which is where the 680,000 number comes from - the largest estimate of how many may have been killed directly and indirectly by this genocidal war.
> at least 18,500 of them are children, 217 journalists, 120 academics, and 224 humanitarian aid workers
From my understanding GHM numbers don't break these figures for those that are combatants either, the population overall is quite young and Hamas is known to use child soldiers as well. Journalists(along with doctors) in Gaza have even been themselves involved in holding hostages for Hamas[0]. There are many issues like this which significantly complicate separating combatant deaths from non-combatant deaths.
> And that 65k number does not include indirect deaths - i.e. deaths by starvation, or death from something that could have been easily survived if there were still hospitals instead of rubble.
The 65k is AFAIU not even advertised by the GHM as confirmed deaths(i.e. deaths with confirmed identities), it's an estimate from an organization(Hamas) which is highly incentivized to report the highest figures that are believable internationally. There are not any incentives for them to underestimate casualties since they use casualties figures for propaganda purposes and will use the highest figures they can come up with while maintaining some level of credibility.
It's also unlikely there are many deaths that can be attributed directly to starvation, while there may be food insecurity issues there is still sufficient aid reaching Gaza to largely prevent deaths from starvation. There are countries in the world where there is actual famine and pictures/videos from those places(i.e. those taken out in the open on the streets) look nothing like those from Gaza. Even organizations like the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs have been known to put out(and subsequently walk back) blatantly false information[1] to make it appear the situation is worse than it actually is.
> Which is where the 680,000 number comes from - the largest estimate of how many may have been killed directly and indirectly by this genocidal war.
Numbers 10x those put out by the GHM(which is already highly incentivized to inflate casualty figures) are not remotely credible.
IMO the figures put out by the GHM are likely within the correct order of magnitude, keeping in mind that those figures include combatant deaths. For a conflict like this which involves urban warfare(where similar conflicts historically have had very high casualties) such casualty figures certainly don't appear to be unusually high.
Claims of genocide made against Israel simply do not stand up to scrutiny. Civilian deaths are largely in line with what would expect for a war like this, especially one where enemy combatants are not in uniform and intentionally hide amongst the civilian population and fight from civilian areas(which is of course a war crime). There are strong incentives both internationally and domestically for Israel to minimize civilian casualties as much as feasible.
If intelligence from surveillance increases combatant deaths then it could be expected that the death figures like those from the GHM(which include combatant deaths) may rise even if the actual civilian casualty rate decreases.
> who knows better than the united fucking nations
The UN is one of the organizations that is heavily responsible for perpetuating this conflict, from promoting terrorism via UNRWA schools[0] to employing terrorists[1] and those who sympathize with terrorists[2]. These[3] sort of biased UN reports in general tend to be deeply flawed and do not stand up to even basic scrutiny[4].
> thinks murdering children is ok because heyyy some of them are child soldiers. Sounds good.
Do you really think 17 year olds can't also be combatants? The Gaza(Hamas) Health Ministry last I checked counts children as anyone below the age of 18.
Massive eyeroll. These stories you've linked to are overcooked propaganda, where any teacher who thinks palestinians are being treated poorly - because they are living in an apartheid state, essentially an open-air prison - is labelled as promoting hate or terrorism.
You could just as easily write a report about israeli schools teaching hate, and promoting terrorism if you sat in and heard how they teach a skewed version of the history of the conflict, or cherry pick teachers who's social media was angry in the wake of oct 7th. Harder story to sell to the ny times tho.
17 year olds can be combatants. Sure. So either all of the dead children are 17 year old combatants or you’re ok with some child murder. Exactly how much child murder are you ok with?
How much journalist murder are you ok with?
How much aid worker murder are you ok with?
How much collective punishment are you ok with?
All of these things are happening - there is no doubt - the only thing we’re debating is exactly how much has happened. Is there a number you wouldn’t be ok with? What specific percentage of the >65k dead would have to be innocent before you’d have a problem with it? 50%… 75%… 95%?
> These stories you've linked to are overcooked propaganda, where any teacher who thinks palestinians are being treated poorly - because they are living in an apartheid state, essentially an open-air prison - is labelled as promoting hate or terrorism.
The issue is far more complex than Palestinians being treated poorly, they are also treated poorly by their own rulers. Extremist ideologies are pervasive within Palestine, just look up any Palestinian opinion polling. That a very large percentage of Palestinians are taught and hold extremist ideologies is well documented. Also a military occupation is not equivalent to an apartheid state, Apartheid is segregation/discrimination based on race, the sort of discrimination you see under military occupation in regards to Israel is discrimination based on citizenship, which is a form of discrimination virtually all countries practice to various degrees.
> You could just as easily write a report about israeli schools teaching hate, and promoting terrorism if you sat in and heard how they teach a skewed version of the history of the conflict, or cherry pick teachers who's social media was angry in the wake of oct 7th. Harder story to sell to the ny times tho.
Those UNRWA teachers weren't angry in the wake of oct 7th, they were celebrating the attacks.
What percentage of the population of Palestinian governed territories(i.e. West Bank Areas A/B and Gaza) is Jewish...0%
What percentage of the population of Israeli governed territories is Muslim...around 20%
Seems pretty clear to me which side has the bigger problem with teaching intolerant ideologies.
> 17 year olds can be combatants. Sure. So either all of the dead children are 17 year old combatants or you’re ok with some child murder. Exactly how much child murder are you ok with?
My point was simply that casualty numbers are complex and that one can't simply equate Children to non-combatants/civilians.
> All of these things are happening - there is no doubt - the only thing we’re debating is exactly how much has happened. Is there a number you wouldn’t be ok with? What specific percentage of the >65k dead would have to be innocent before you’d have a problem with it? 50%… 75%… 95%?
There should be 0 civilian casualties, but those civilian deaths that do happen are almost entirely due to Hamas fighting from within civilian areas(which is of course a war crime). Unfortunately causing civilian casualties is part of the Hamas strategy[0]. When one fails to recognize the side is intentionally inducing civilian casualties then finding a solution will be much harder.
From a simple incentives analysis if one allows the strategy of using human shields to be an effective military strategy...then that would further incentivize combatants like Hamas to use human shields even more. The rules of war are deliberately written in a way that allows parties to conduct warfare, otherwise nobody would follow those rules of war. This is one reason why collateral damage is not considered a war crime while deliberately using human shields is a war crime.
And that 65k number does not include indirect deaths - i.e. deaths by starvation, or death from something that could have been easily survived if there were still hospitals instead of rubble. Which is where the 680,000 number comes from - the largest estimate of how many may have been killed directly and indirectly by this genocidal war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war