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Yeah, everyone is doing their little contribution to help Google take over the Web and turn it into ChromeOS Platform.

Why did we ever bothered with the IE lawsuit, for a newer generation to give the Web on a plate to Google?



Because at the time IE6 was a terrible browser with poor standards support, while Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support. It is a gilded cage.


> Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support.

Google learned it can be "standards compliant" if it submits a draft spec to WHATWG/W3C, and while the comment and revision process is still ongoing, roll out those features in Chrome and start using them in YouTube, Gmail, Google docs, and AMP. Now Firefox and Safari are forced to implement those draft specs as well or users will leave in droves because Google websites are broken. Soon enough, Google's draft spec is standardized with minimal revisions because it's already out there in the wild.

The debate, revision, and multistakeholder aspects of the standards process have been effectively bypassed, a la IE6 and ActiveX, but Chrome can claim to be on the cutting edge of standards compliance. This is a case of Goodharts's law.


I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.


Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards.

- All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is...

- Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome.

- Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/

Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API


push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard.

Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.


WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.


Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation?

Who knows.

Not us, we’ll never know.


To add insult to injury, we probably would have gotten WebGL 2.0 Compute, which was initially done by Intel, if Chrome had not refused to ship it on Chrome, arguing that WebGPU was right around the corner, and it would take too much space, this was about 5 years ago.

And to those rushing out to point out the excuse part about OpenGL on Mac not having support for compute, WebGL already back then wasn't backed up by OpenGL on all platforms, see Windows (DirectX), PlayStation (LibGNM).

Also eventually Safari also moved their WebGL implementation from OpenGL to Metal, and Chrome did as well, replace their WebGL to run on top of Metal on Mac.

So not really that much of a problem regarding the state of OpenGL on Mac as "required" implemenatation layer for WebGL.


Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu


We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website.

If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features.

Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.


But the other browsers objected yet Chrome still shipped them


QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.


Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.


It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret


Any serious antitrust process would break it in a separate company.


Would that change anything? If you have a separate company who owns a 90% market share browser, they can keep ignoring standards just fine


If Google websites break on Safari, users will stop using Google before they stop using an iPhone. They will blame Google as well. Safari has refused to implement standards multiple times.



That is revisionism, IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition, like Chrome is today, and Microsoft withdraw most of the development resources from the team.

WPF XAML was originally designed by ex IE team members, and they were the same that a few years later proposed XAML Grid concept as CSS Grid initial design.

Many JavaScript devs have to thank their abuse of JavaScript in the browser to XMLHttpRequest introduced by IE.


> IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition

Yeah, people forget that IE was a great browser. It was easily the most performant, I think driven by the Outlook web (I believe the first web app to make use of XMLHttpRequest) team demanding IE team make it so. The issue, like you said, is they won and then stopped updating.


Maybe for a short period. Honestly Firefox(phoenix) was my browser of choice.

Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.


> Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.

Default helped, but IE was the far superior browser for a long time. People chose to use it.

I was also a FF user and it came out a few years later than IE6. When FF came out IE6 was still the superior browser, though it was eventually overtaken by both FF and Chrome.


It was sad to me watching that battle unfold. Maybe i was ignorant (and maybe i still am), but I learned most of what i know about web dev on Netscape sitting in a mac lab at university viewing source code. I HATED when IE started to takeover and eventually won that first battle. I miss Netscape :-(


Revisionism? I was around then and I implemented plenty of sites in IE. It always had bugs that other browsers did not (and there were more than two engines back then). Maddening lack of support of features that other browsers had implemented, often requiring crazy workarounds. Transparent PNGs didn't even work! Not to mention all the proprietary crap like ActiveX.


What do you expect from browser itself? It loads html + js . It’s no longer center of innovation.


To Google execs, a browser is a rectangle on your screen that you click on while it delivers you ads.


Support for PNG alpha channel


Tabs would have been a nice feature to add.


> leading standards support

"Leading" being the operative word. Ship a new feature, submit it as a standard and encourage its adoption so things only work on chrome and further increase market share when people find other browsers "broken".

MS did exactly the same shit with IE - the only really difference was that the standards body (w3c) was independent, so they couldn't self declare it as a standard. Now the "standards" body (whatwg) is mostly google...


That was quite a move from Google, replacing the independent W3C with the Google lapdog whatwg...


It is nice when you have replaced the original standard committee with your own committee. You can always have "leading standards support".

MS was not smart enough to do this. Google was smarter.


Isn't part of the issue that they have a big hand in defining the standards?


Right, and I would add: normalizing an accelerated rate of new standards adoption and vast codebases that only they can sustain.


leading standards support

Except no support for:

  CSS Canvas Drawings
  CSS filter() function
  Video Tracks
  Audio Tracks
  FIDO U2F API
  SPDY protocol
  JPEG XL image format
  HTTP Live Streaming
  HEIF/HEIC image format
  SVG fonts
  CSS hanging-punctuation
And broken support for:

  CSS font-smooth
  CSS Initial Letter
  Speech Recognition API
  CSS -webkit-user-drag property
  CSS3 Multiple column layout
  CSS text-indent
  Synchronous Clipboard API
  HEVC/H.265 video format
  TLS 1.1
  text-decoration styling
  CSS display: contents
  CSS Container Style Queries
  CSS clip-path property for HTML
  CSS Counter Styles
  Ruby annotation
  WAI-ARIA Accessibility features
  Media Fragments
  autocomplete attribute: on & off values
  DOMMatrix
  SVG effects for HTML
  X-Frame-Options HTTP header
  DNSSEC and DANE
  WebXR Device API
  DeviceOrientation & DeviceMotion events
  Permissions Policy
  asm.js
  Network Information API
  theme-color Meta Tag
  Document Policy
Source: https://caniuse.com

The whole "Chrome is the leader in standards" meme is a lie.


Your copy&paste does not support your argument. Just looking at the top items on your list, it's basically a bunch of Safari-only features which no other browser vendor ships:

- CSS Canvas Drawings is not a web standard. It's a WebKit-specific feature, only Safari implements it. Chromium removed it in order to replace it with an actual web standard (CSS Painting API).

- Likewise, the CSS filter() function is Safari-only.

- U2F API has been deprecated for years, was replaced by WebAuthn, and only Safari still implements it.

- Same with SPDY, which was replaced by an actual web standard (HTTP2). Only Safari still ships it, but has marked it deprecated.

- SVG Fonts were removed from the SVG spec.

- HLS, JPEG-XL, HEIF/HEIC are essentially Safari-only as well.

CSS hanging-punctuation and audio/video tracks are new features that haven't been widely implemented yet.


Considering there's 2 browsers, 3 if we're being generous, basically every new feature is a bunch of X-only features that Y doesn't support.


>Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support

Yes, Chrome has leading standards™ [1] support!

_________

[1] A so-called standard™ is a piece of source code that sits on the main branch of the Chromium repository. Not to be confused with actual standards!


The "standards" are now effectively controlled by Google.


the IE6 lawsuit was about web browser monopoly, not a complaint for poor tech.


  > Why did we ever bothered with the IE lawsuit, for a newer generation to give the Web on a plate to Google?
Without proper education, every generation repeats the follies of their parents.


Just to remind everyone though, Microsoft won that lawsuit on appeal.

So the history here is that Microsoft lost its monopoly on its own poor decision making.


The last thing Google would want is the web to turn into a Chrome platform. Unlike with Microsoft or even Apple, their source of revenue is web, and they they are doing everything in their capacity for this platform to win. This is exactly why they open-sourced most of Chrome and almost fully finance Chrome's biggest competitor.


>Unlike with Microsoft or even Apple, their source of revenue is web, and they they are doing everything in their capacity for this platform to win.

I feel like there's a missing step in the argument here. Yes Google's revenue comes from the web, yes Chromium being open source and paying for search deals are a hedge against anti trust, but why does it follow that they wouldn't want to dominate the browser space? They do, and it seems to be working quite well for them. But it feels more like a minimum effort hedge against antitrust then a demonstration of a healthy ecosystem.

Also, every time Chromium comes up you have people pointing to it like it's a counterpoint to their browser dominance. It's open source, so what's the issue? But the issue is that Chromium as a body decides whether commits make it into the browser and the decision making body is an invite only group of full time Google developers. So it is controlled by Google after all.


>But the issue is that Chromium as a body decides whether commits make it into the browser and the decision making body is an invite only group of full time Google developers.

Not if you fork it.


I understand that "just fork it" has been the canonical response to disagreements over direction of open source software. Sometimes that's the right call, the world is better for having a forked Syncthing, forked Nextcloud, and so on.

But I think there are cases, such as Chromium where the "just fork it" response is unrealistic about the burden of maintaining a codebase or the ongoing relationship to new updates, or not having capacity to solve new problems or comply with new standards in Google-independent ways. Part of the problem of Chromium is that it's normalized a velocity of development and of codebase size in exactly the way you would if you were going for embrace-extend-extinguish.

And the foundational point is still true, Google controls commits to Chromium, so the core project itself is not ever going to be an organic manifestion of community desires for an egalitarian internet. It's going to be whatever helps consolidate Google's monopoly.


You're not wrong, but there are organizations which could hard-fork Chromium, it just happens to be more productive to collaborate as long as Google remains a good steward.


They already did, Safari is the only one left standing, by the market share.

Plus all the Electron crap that gets shoved as "native".


The only reason Safari has any market share is because it's the default on every iPhone.

4/5 top browsers by market share are there because they are preinstalled on millions of devices and none of them are terrible enough for an average person to look for an alternative.


Exactly right and I wish more people understood this as the key dynamic driving change in browser adoption. Just for one more example, what little toehold Edge and Bing have right now are from muscling those in front of people as defaults.

Which I think is important as it relates to Mozilla. Because a lot of the arguments back and forth about Mozilla assume that change in browser adoption was about what features they did or didn't add. But I think that completely ignores powerful actors leveraging monopoly positions to drive users to their browsers, which is more important by several orders or magnitude. Any explanation of that history which leaves that part out is revisionist history in my opinion.


Indeed, otherwise the only thing left would be ChromeOS Platform and its forks.


I disagree wholeheartedly, the current state of browser market share has nothing to do with how good any of the browsers are, it's just monopolistic behavior. Device manufacturers should force you to pick one during setup, which is absolutely a reasonable policy decision away.

In fact, as of this year, Apple devices in the EU already have to ask you which browser you want to use during the setup process, while Android devices don't have to ask you which browser you want to use, but do have to ask you which search engine you want to use. It is a bit inconsistent and arbitrary, but it's a step in the right direction.


But chrome is not default and people still go to install it


What do you mean? It is on many Androids and every Chromebook.

I just checked some website stats I have access to and ~78.6% of iOS users use Safari. On Android on the other hand, ~76% of them use Chrome, ~8.1% uses the Samsung Browser, and there's a marginal amount of people using other manufacturer-provided browsers like Huawei Browser and MIUI (Xiaomi's default). Of course I don't know the exact manufacturer of Android phones to be able to tell what percentage of say Samsung devices switched to Chrome, but I'd say the pattern's still pretty clear.

The only people likely to switch browsers are desktop users, but they total to <20% of the traffic. Funnily enough Chrome isn't even the top browser overall, it's Safari, but that tells you more about my clientele (richer than average for my target market).


I meant on windows


Windows itself doesn't matter anymore, on that same website it's at 11.9%.


not merely default but enforced.


An alternative explanation is they fund Mozilla to avoid a monopoly breakup. The evidence? The fact that everyone currently knows exactly how much Google pays Mozilla because of the recent attempt to do a monopoly breakup.


It was also a time before Google demoted "Don't be evil." from their company literature.


I took "don't BE evil" to mean don't let the company image be that of an evil company which already made me distrust them. Once it was gone I knew the death star was fully operational.

the (very challenging) "trick" is to use Libre hardware/software, like Pinephone and LineageOS, but that's not realistic for the vast majority of people :(




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