Here's one data point. My grandmother and mother now both use Raspberry Pis as their primary computers and are 100% satisfied. My father is looking to switch as well and he's been setting up a GrapheneOS phone I made for him which runs flawlessly.
If year of Linux doesn't arrive by choice, authoritarianism will force the issue one way or another.
My kids have an old Thinkpad T440p that's their Scratch/Roblox/Minecraft machine, and overall it works well enough running Ubuntu (originally 22.04, then 24.04, now 25.04). But it has been far from seamless:
- the built in bluetooth and wifi can't be used at the same time; for a while we mitigated this with a USB wifi module, but that eventually broke and so now bluetooth is just disabled.
- it's hard to figure out what apps and app data are shared between users. AFAICT there's one Steam install my kids are sharing, but each one installs their own copy of a game, which is terrible for disk usage.
- a bunch of games don't work, especially from non-steam sources like Epic and Itch.io. I've heard about the Heroic Launcher, and I will try it at some point, but it's just... one more fiddly thing to have to mess with.
- several Minecraft launchers / mod-managers have been tried, but I can't seem to keep my Microsoft account logged in on there, so I eventually just put my password on a sticky note so they could re-auth it whenever needed (fortunately I don't use it for anything else).
- unattended-upgrades pulled a new kernel and the thing just panicked on startup until I went into the grub menu to get the previous one and reverted.
- until 25.04 the power management story was terrible, the machine would chew through the whole (newly replaced) battery in less than an hour.
As a competent nerd I've been ~fine with all this, but it's honestly right on the edge of acceptable. I expect a normal person would immediately give up in the face of most of these— either give up in terms of ditching the machine/OS or give up as in accepting a limitation like it just doesn't play that game or I just can't use my earbuds.
I have been using thinkpads since forever and bluetooth and wifi both work (at the same time, yes). It seems more likely to be a broken machine. Which can happen.
I had a faulty keyboard on a thinkpad that was causing a lot of seemingly unrelated problems, like freezes or suspend not working. Replacing the keyboard resolved everything.
It was kind of a subtle failure, tbh— like when bluetooth was active (game controller, headphones) then the wifi would suddenly have huge packet loss resulting in a bunch of retransmissions. So it would kind of still work but be really annoying to use. That said, I haven't fully re-tried it since updating to 25.04, so maybe the story is better on the newer kernel.
The keyboard has already been replaced once, though at the time I just bought whatever was cheapest on eBay, assuming they were all the same, and I think I did get a bit burned with a crappy knockoff— the keys are weirdly clicky and several feel like they're about to pop off at any moment; I have the LiteOn keyboard standing by which I'd like to try out, as that's the one that comes recommended most often online.
The bluetooth problem predated the installation of the replacement keyboard.
Anyway, I'm not going to fight for this, I'm just saying my "Linux desktop for non-technical users" experience in 2023-2025 timeframe was such that I don't know that I would do it again, and certainly would be extremely hesitant to recommend it to a household where no one is standing by with the willingness and aptitude required to tackle a boot-to-grub situation.
The minecraft thing is a problem regardless of launcher, to the point that I actively condone people pay for the game then find ways to not require online auth.
Some moron at Microsoft decided that if your password is serving its purpose and people aren't able to get in but that there are a bunch of attempts that you should need to reset your password. Because of this, I have to reset my password. Every. Time. I. Want. To. Play.
But that means multiple 2FA codes to both my non-mirosoft account email and to my phone. All in all, it usually takes about 7 or 8 minutes each time I want to play, which is an ABSURD amount of friction for an account I don't want to be using to play the game anyway, given when I bought it it was a Mojang account without all the associated, creepy TOS changes.
Don't be afraid to look around for ways to play without a legitimate account if you've paid. If that's the better experience, it is what it is.
I used to work on a T440s on Debian from 2013 - 2017. I am surprised that your battery life is so poor on Ubuntu. I was able to frequently push my 9-cell battery laptop to 12 hours with careful usage.
If I forgot my charging cable at home, I could do a full day at the office with music and internet on battery.
Might be the nature of the task, game playing vs text editing, or there was something wrong with a driver or background process.
Or another factor is that I think often the "new" batteries for old devices are in fact themselves old and have just been sitting around on shelves for years. Obviously that doesn't wear them as hard as actual cycling, but it's not nothing, particularly if they're allowed to discharge down to empty.
>- several Minecraft launchers / mod-managers have been tried, but I can't seem to keep my Microsoft account logged in on there, so I eventually just put my password on a sticky note so they could re-auth it whenever needed (fortunately I don't use it for anything else).
This is a perspective I'd like to hear more often. Too often I hear all these supposed ideal solutions without mentioning the pitfalls of having to support a non-technical family.
Pi hole is a good example. Do all websites (and other services) still work perfectly but without ads, or am I going to have to endure sighing and eyerolling everytime someone asks me why their site isn't loading (again)?
The main annoying thing about piHole with a non-technical family has been that it blocks google shopping.
You know, when you search for a thing you want to buy and google shopping shows a list of common stores on top of the search results like a bunch of little cards? Yep. Clicking one there causes a failure because that link is a google ad link. Same thing if you tab into "Shopping". All links are broken.
Otherwise, it's been 4 years and no other complaints at all.
GP here and yes I've experienced that too— I run a pihole-style blocklist on my OpenWRT router and never got a good workflow together for adding exemptions to it.
On a phone it's not a huge deal as you can just momentarily switch to data, click through, and then switch back. But it's more annoying on a computer where you have to figure out where that link was going to go and then get there by an organic path.
> Do all websites (and other services) still work perfectly
Like 99%? I've rarely seen problems running it for years
> but without ads,
No. It is only a DNS blocker. Most browsers these days will bypass that anyways. But it is definitely helpful for lots of other things on your network. You can also point the browser there to get the same benefits but still won't replace an adblocker.
Linux is great for technical people, or at least technically-inclined and patient people, who can overcome the inevitable technical obstacle that most of us don't even think about. It's also great for people whose needs are so basic-- email client and web browser basic-- that once they're set up with a default everything, they have no interest in doing anything that might present a technical obstacle.
Neither of those user groups are the problem. The problem is the majority of computer users that have real practical skill born from computer use at school, work, while gaming, doing art, etc. They want to do enough with their computer to run up against technical obstacles, but
a) don't have the significant amount of prerequisite knowledge we take for granted to generalize what they know to other operating systems
b) don't have the subject matter interest to inspire them to get that knowledge
and those two things mean
c) view any extra steps required to do something on Linux (e.g. use wine to run software they've been using for a decade) as a needless hassle that prevents them from doing what they really want to do, rather than a satisfying problem to solve because configuring the computer is part of the fun.
So if they hadn't already given up on Linux, they might ask one of the bazillion "Hey I'm a bit of a noob here, but..." questions on reddit or whatnot only to receive a barrage of conceited responses by zealots who make it very clear how put-out they are by their question-- which they didn't have to read, let alone answer-- and how rude it was for them to not read entry 427 on the FAQ which leads to a page of resources that might have addressed part of their problem. If nothing else has already discouraged them from continuing, that sure will.
Unless someone with those users' needs at the forefront of their design practice Bluesky's Linux (some like pop os are making a solid effort), it will never ever work as a general-purpose desktop OS.
Please give Linux a try. Don't let the perception deceive you. Perceptions are slow to change and a lot has changed in that time.
> They want to do enough with their computer to run up against technical obstacles,
They will solve those problems the exact same way they solve them on Windows: Google, StackOverflow, forums, GPTs, or whatever. There's even an advantage in Linux as there's a large number of highly technical users already doing exactly the same thing and will share knowledge.
> use wine to run software they've been using for a decade
Wine for what? Word? I think most people will use the browser.
If you mean games, I think Steam has got most of that covered. Proton hides in the background for most people.
But these users also happily will install engines for game modding and other things. Give what I see these people doing, Wine seems like child's play.
> only to receive a barrage of conceited responses by zealots
I agree! That sucks! I do try to fight this and there has been serious strides in this direction over the last decade. In fact, I'd argue that the suggested distros were part of this response. The attitude you see on EndeavourOS, PopOS, or Ubuntu forums are very different. Hell, even the Arch forums are getting better! Sometimes they provide links to the "dupe". They're almost to the state of StackOverflow! But I mean... let's not expect that to be ever fully resolved. We lost the war for the Noob Guide (I fought for that and was a contributor!), but at least we got Manjaro and Endeavour in return ;)
I really do mean it, things have changed a lot in the last 10 years. I'm sorry for those experiences. I hated them when they happened to me and I step in when I see them happening. It's the only way we can make change. But what you describe does not seem to be the state of things I see today, but it does describe the state of things I saw (and experienced) in the past.
> Please give Linux a try. Don't let the perception deceive you. Perceptions are slow to change and a lot has changed in that time.
I've been using Linux for nearly 30 years-- professionally and as a desktop OS-- and am also a UI designer. I've even used everything from AIX to Solaris and even HP-UX on an old phone switch. What I'm saying is coming from the usability designer focus on the experience of new users and the problems they have.
>They will solve those problems the exact same way they solve them on Windows: Google, StackOverflow, forums, GPTs, or whatever. There's even an advantage in Linux as there's a large number of highly technical users already doing exactly the same thing and will share knowledge.
The difference is they don't generally have those problems on Windows or MacOS. How many windows users encounter serious problems... say... updating their video card drivers.
> Wine for what? Word? I think most people will use the browser.
Trivializing the needs of non-technical end users while also trivializing the difficulty of adopting new tech paradigms is really at the root of the problem in FOSS usability, in general. Lots of people use adobe products, video editing software, games, random utilities for hardware peripherals, CAD software, industry-specific or worplace-specific programs... there are lots of things that users who sit between software developers and users that would be fine with a chromebook.
> d argue that the suggested distros were part of this response. The attitude you see on EndeavourOS, PopOS, or Ubuntu forums are very different.
For users that don't want to 'use a computer,' but want the computer to solve whatever problem they're having in the way they're used to solving it, that's already a nonstarter. I'd wager that no more than 10% of computer users have seriously researched a technical problem trying to troubleshoot it. I'd wager about 20% of that already small crowd has consulted formal software documentation. It's just not a natural process for most computer users. It would be great if people were more interested enough in how computers work, even superficially, but many are not. It's just the way it is. People don't need encouragement to try linux-- they need a fundamental shift if the way they approach computer usage-- as a complex tool rather than a flexible appliance. There's a gulf of requirements that aren't being met to bridge that gap for all but the lowest-level users.
> one of the bazillion "Hey I'm a bit of a noob here, but..." questions on reddit or whatnot only to receive a barrage of conceited responses by zealots who make it very clear how put-out they are by their question-- which they didn't have to read, let alone answer-- and how rude it was for them to not read entry 427 on the FAQ which leads to a page of resources that might have addressed part of their problem.
Today's Linux support forums are nothing like this. You only get an angry response when you start out by whining about how Linux "can't" (doesn't, with your current understanding) do what you want, or doesn't behave exactly like what you're familiar with. You might get asked to pay attention to the forum rules and guidelines banner that tells you to use some inxi invocation or whatever to get your system info - and that will link to a fully detailed guide on how to do it, as well as how to format your post properly.
If anything, the Mint forums for example are too eager to assume you're a noob, and will suggest awkward foolproof approaches to everything that don't respect what you're trying to accomplish if it's a bit advanced.
Okay, the Arch forums will respond to you with just a link to the Wiki if you're asking something that's well covered in the wiki. That's supposed to be a hint to read one specific wiki page (and they told you which one); they won't waste breath on "how put-out they are by your question" because a) they aren't, and b) typing more words is the thing that would make them put out. The point is that if you can't make sense of the wiki, then you should ask something more specific. And if you don't know what a word means, you should look it up.
And if we're talking about "users that have real practical skill born from computer use at school, work, while gaming, doing art, etc." then they should be capable of those things.
Back when I was developing said "real practical skill", being assessed as having that "real practical skill" entailed understanding that far fewer people seem to have nowadays. I don't just mean things like poring through manpages or reasoning about command pipelines. Nowadays it seems that people can be perceived as computer literate without things like having a working mental model of a "file" or a "path".
It honestly wouldn't have occurred to me that this is feasible - my mental model of a "Raspberry Pi" is basically what the first-gen models were. But apparently it's been a while now, and their newest models use an ARM Cortex-A76 CPU, which is actually pretty respectable - only a bit behind my 2014 desktop, from the numbers I can find. Absolutely capable of running a web browser on modern Linux.
The Raspberry Pi 500 series with the CPU built into the keyboard are very capable little computers and extremely easy to setup, maintain, and re-image. I could literally mail them a new microSD card to plug in if they needed a new system but it's never been a problem. They use the default Raspbian image or whatever it's called these days, Raspberry Pi OS. It's perfectly suited for their needs and is rock solid.
My household of 5 has been running exclusively Linux desktops for the past several years. Coming from Windows, I installed KDE distros and nobody has had any trouble with it.
They average user needs to be able to turn on the machine and have it boot, log in, use a web browser, connect Bluetooth devices, and print stuff. Linux desktops are more than capable of that sort of thing with zero additional training.
This weekend, I actually booted an old Windows XP machine that I've had sitting in a closet, and was astonished at just how...clunky Windows XP felt to me. It's not that it was hard, but it really helped highlight to me just how actually-usable Linux desktops have become.
Which models have you given them? Linux has been my computing best friend for more than a decade and I have also enjoyed using the Raspberry Pi 400.
But the Raspberry Pi 500 (keyboard model) is even better and (literally and figuratively) a cool design. You get 8GB RAM, boot from NVME, Debian with Wayland (labwc), and the R.Pi community.
They both use Raspberry Pi 500s. Seriously the support requests are zero. They both know that if anything weird happens, they can just pull the USB cable out of the back and plug it back in and everything will go back to normal. They seriously mostly use web browsers and my grandmother absolutely loves her gigantic monitor.
+1 for setting up parents with Linux.
In my case, a Chromebook I hacked to run Mint.
Like fucking hell I'm going to let senior parents navigate the virus known as Windows 11, complete with forced updates and reboots, disappearing customizations, and the constant and unrelenting spyware?! No thanks.
If year of Linux doesn't arrive by choice, authoritarianism will force the issue one way or another.