I don't understand exactly what you are trying to say.
I think a REPL is the real-eval-print-loop used by lisp systems to talk to a terminal, or something that looks/works like that (but maybe doesn't use lisp). These days I think lots of things have REPLs. Even Python. The only ones to survive 40 years though, have been serial ones, and I don't think that's an accident.
That command box/area that the user uses and re-uses in Oberon and Acme is something else and specifically worse than a REPL because you can't script it: There's no GNU expect for rio, and no DESQview-learn for Oberon and their command language just isn't good enough. This interface has not proven particularly efficient for users either, but terminals are still around.
Emacs is what I'd consider "peak terminal", and it has a REPL and an excellent command language. You can also script Emacs with emacs, by literally running emacs in an emacs terminal.
> Imagine Emacs mixed with Jupiter netbooks, for the whole OS stack.
Sounds dreadful.
> That is a a barebones REPL from early 1960's, not the experience I was mentioning.
No, that is a definite article. I was talking about three things, two of which are things you brought up in an effort to find common ground. If you don't know Oberon or Acme then there's no point in talking to you about them. I still don't know what you're trying to tell me, and I'm beginning to think you don't either.
> If you don't know Oberon or Acme then there's no point in talking to you about them. I still don't know what you're trying to tell me, and I'm beginning to think you don't either.
Oh boy, I definitely know Oberon.
Here is my detailed explaination.
You write the REPL like code you feel like on a pane, you can the use the sigils that map if the command (loaded dynamically as instances from Oberon commands in modules), refers to existing text, selected wigdet on another pane, or requests user for additional infortmation, mouse select the command and execute it.
> You write the REPL like code you feel like on a pane, you can the use the sigils that map if the command (loaded dynamically as instances from Oberon commands in modules), refers to existing text, selected wigdet on another pane, or requests user for additional infortmation, mouse select the command and execute it.
Ok. I feel like I already explained why TextFrames is (a) not a REPL, and (b) absolutely worse than what you can do in a terminal.
> To people stuck in UNIX mindset, maybe.
I don't know man. I don't know anyone who doesn't use UNIX every day, and I don't know anyone who uses Oberon every day. I am telling you in a way why I don't think that's an accident, and we can talk about that aspect if you want, but I think the cobol forms on a 3270 are a way more interesting version of terminals than what UNIX does with them, and programming/scripting the terminal is really the thing I think that makes them better than any other human-computer-interface.
Depends. Emacs has had brilliant ideas, did brave things, it just remained stagnant for the past 30 years. (Unlike terminal emulators, which do boring things, and have been stagnant for 40 years.)
A slightly better REPL doesn't have to be brave. It just needs a sensible text editing widget, that's already a tenfold improvement. The cognitive load between Ctrl-C and Ctrl-Shift-C drives me crazy.
> it just remained stagnant for the past 30 years. (Unlike terminal emulators, which do boring things, and have been stagnant for 40 years.)
I disagree with all of this.
> The cognitive load between Ctrl-C and Ctrl-Shift-C drives me crazy
If you use emacs like you say, you should know you can bind ^C to whatever you want.
I like ^C being what it always has been, and I'm not persuaded by one person's inability to perform an internet search or read the manual of software they claim to use.
> If you use emacs like you say, you should know you can bind ^C to whatever you want.
Hell no. I've suffered Emacs bankruptcy several times over the past 20 years. I try to keep my init.el under 1k lines to avoid another one. Rebinding Ctrl-X or Ctrl-C never works without addressing a dozen quirks, and there's always another one waiting around the corner. Hell no.
> I disagree with all of this. [...] I like ^C being what it always has been [...]
You're entitled to your opinions, but I'm arguing for more consistent behaviour for applications. This can be objectively measured by answering questions such as: "does this application copy and paste text? if so, does it use the same key shortcuts as the next application?"
> Rebinding Ctrl-X or Ctrl-C never works without addressing a dozen quirks, and there's always another one waiting around the corner. Hell no.
:)
> I'm arguing for more consistent behaviour for applications
I think that's tilting at windmills.
You can solve your own problems, or you can ignore them, but there's no way you can just whinge on the Internet about how much you love Emacs but hate the copy/paste keys and get anywhere. You already know this. I'm sorry. Good luck with that.
> This can be objectively measured by answering questions such as: "does this application copy and paste text? if so, does it use the same key shortcuts as the next application?"
Since my first mouse, it has always been select with left button and paste with second button. That's how it is in OS/2, in every unix, and even on VMS. That's how it still is with every terminal I use. It's just simply not an application concern in my world and I think it was bad engineering for Apple and Microsoft to try and get the Application involved in the clipboard.
I think a REPL is the real-eval-print-loop used by lisp systems to talk to a terminal, or something that looks/works like that (but maybe doesn't use lisp). These days I think lots of things have REPLs. Even Python. The only ones to survive 40 years though, have been serial ones, and I don't think that's an accident.
That command box/area that the user uses and re-uses in Oberon and Acme is something else and specifically worse than a REPL because you can't script it: There's no GNU expect for rio, and no DESQview-learn for Oberon and their command language just isn't good enough. This interface has not proven particularly efficient for users either, but terminals are still around.
Emacs is what I'd consider "peak terminal", and it has a REPL and an excellent command language. You can also script Emacs with emacs, by literally running emacs in an emacs terminal.