My problem with Tesla (besides Elon) is that you look at the corners being cut and can only think "Imagine how much better it would be if they hadn't built Cybertruck".
I have a 2018 M3 and was almost tempted by the redesign, until I saw how they butchered the steering wheel, and some of the worst customer support I've ever had to deal with.
Also stiffing customers on what should be warranty repairs, but because the suspension is a wear item they only provide free labor, all 2018 M3 have suspension problems.
Now they are all in on self driving robo-taxis that we all know are going to be far more problematic than Waymo.
It was definitely not perfectly clear. I was very confused when I first read the comment.
If we were talking about laptops I would know M3 refers to the processor, but there's literally a car named "M3" that's been popular for nearly 40 years.
The Ioniq 5 has much nicer interior but it can't drive you from point A to point B without intervention. So the Model Y could be a made out of Lego, have a seat with nails sticking out, force me to inflict pain on myself before putting it in drive and I would still own a Model Y. Even if Elon is crazy there is nothing else close to it on the market I'm sorry. Maybe Rivian.
> but it can't drive you from point A to point B without intervention.
My Model 3 with FSD constantly has problems going from A to B without intervention.
I'd miss FSD, but ultimately it's not that big of a benefit over other ADAS implementations. Lane keeping and auto cruise is like 90% of the benefit of FSD.
Lane keep plus adaptive cruise control is ok until you want more. Trust me I used open pilot for 4 years. Once you have auto lane change like GM Cruise or Tesla FSD you can't go back.
> My Model 3 with FSD constantly has problems going from A to B without interventio
I mean my daily drives say otherwise. Are you on HW3 or 4?
Lane change on the interstate is fine, but for city/road nav it can be really bad. There's been more than a few occasions where telsa will try and put me in the wrong lane (even on long and well established road) which would ultimately force an unintended turn. If I'm not babying the system, the car will try and cut off whoever is behind me to follow the route.
Frankly, I don't trust it because of these sorts of problems.
I can't really comment on HW3. Ever since 12 it's been really great. 13 is even better. It drives me everywhere. Some people don't have the mental to let a car drive itself, they want it to drive exactly like they do, which isn't going to happen. It's really like sitting in passenger or backseat and if it isn't doing exactly what you want you tend to think it's messing up.
I had a lot of years with Comma AI before. There's no other consumer system on the planet that is close to FSD. lane assist's and adaptive cruise control are getting better with legacy manufacturers but they're still so far off.
> Some people don't have the mental to let a car drive itself, they want it to drive exactly like they do
Not the problem. Like I said, it's getting into the wrong lane and then cutting off people when it realizes it's not where it should be.
That's not a "It's not driving how I would" problem. That's a "It's creating a dangerous situation because of poor mapping data/bad route decisions" problem.
I typically drive with FSD on, but I'm quick to disengage because it's really not uncommon that the system will try and put me in an obviously bad situation.
I rode in a Tesla once for my Uber. The suspension was like a golf cart, super stiff. It made me sick to my stomach. I had to ask the driver to pull over so I could get out. Not sure if they since changed that. The Musk love vs hate that people foolishly adopt as their identity is the result of a power struggle between teams of elites.
Echoing this, I dread every time I have an uber/lyft/etc that is a Tesla. I'm very convinced that most folks who buy Teslas generically hate cars, and simplifying the experience for them is how they get to drive/start/continue driving.
Someone who can't manage a gear selector because it's "too complicated" is not someone I want driving on the road, and when you combine that with exceptionally terrible ride quality for the price, it makes for a dreadful experience.
When you dumb down/streamline a phone experience into an iPhone you get something anyone globally can use, with not many downsides. When you dumb down a car experience into a single screen/app you get exceptionally shitty drivers.
I genuinely have no idea what was going through their head with the throttle design that seems to make coasting impossible. I too caught an Uber in a Tesla and got sick because in traffic you're just getting jerked forward and back constantly. The huge sunroof was cool but that was about it.
I had never thought this was a pedal issue. It’s a very significant problem in busses here in Copenhagen. We’re being jerked around continuously and it makes the ride very uncomfortable.
On my car, it’s not an issue. The dead zone around the coasting point is wide enough and predictable enough.
I always assumed the bus drivers were either incompetent or lacked empathy, but it being a hardware problem could make way, way more sense.
My BMW i4 supports coasting (D-mode) and one-pedal driving (B-mode), one-pedal makes a lot of sense for the city, you get more regen and use brakes less, although you will get better mileage with coasting on the freeway if you aren't in stop and go traffic.
My wife hates when I use one-pedal mode, if you are driving you don't notice it because you are in control, but it is less nice for passengers.
Are you talking about one pedal mode? I have a different EV and love it, but it takes a couple weeks of driving before you get it down pat, and then it feels like normal driving, and it's easy to coast.
> The Musk love vs hate that people foolishly adopt as their identity is the result of a power struggle between teams of elites.
Hated is a strong word, but I've always disliked Musk and have no interest in Tesla because his repeated comments about "full self driving" showed that he's a liar. Everything since then has just proven my skepticism.
I don't think "Musk hate" is an identity. "Musk love," on the other hand, may be. It seems totally irrational sometimes.
The statement in quote is word for word the rethoric I'm seeing from Netanyahu fans in Israel, and probably Trump fans as well.
Framing a topic as a love/hate binaric identity war is used to prevent all rational discussion.
It might be me, but just reading this gaslighting statement fires my amygdala.
Trolls, wether intentionally or subconsciouslly found perfect tactics to destroy rational debate on the internet and the public sphere in general.
When rational discussion is suffocated, those who use agressive and toxic language with no inhibitions or restraint can win and impose their ideas.
We need to disengage from these kinds of conversations and create some forums or platforms that penalize the use of such language.
I'm pretty sure the original commentor is not dumb enough to actually think everybody who disagrees with him is a brainwashed idiot who "hates Musk".
Or at least, they wouldn't dare to claim it in a civil discussion if they didn't knew they can get away with it and enjoy spewing bullshit while causing undue distress to anyone who tries to argue in good faith.
> I'm pretty sure the original commentor is not dumb enough
That's a pretty big leap of faith, knowing myself. I would say the ratio of people who have decided "Musk is great / Musk is the devil" vs "He's a human being therefore he's not all good or bad and should be analyzed with nuance" is about 100:1 at least preselecting for the personalities that can't keep themselves from populating a comment box, which apparently includes myself.
Historically, most consumer-oriented companies had CEOs who were the definition of bland, and they tried to stay out of the public eye for the most part. We are perhaps about to rediscover why?
I don't own stock in Tesla. How do shareholders of any of his companies consider it acceptable for Musk to do what he is doing as a CEO? By that I mean, dividing his attention between so many projects, and co-opting the resources of one company for another. It reeks of a potential shareholder lawsuit waiting to happen.
I think that they've been fine with it so long as the stock price has continued to climb. If it starts to meaningfully fall, I'd except sentiment to more meaningfully change on him running multiple businesses/DOGE.
It's not like religion where I care how my pastor acts. He's got a job. His performance at the job is about whether the company is successful. The company is successful by my metrics if it goes up in value as determined by the market. Obviously he can't be eating human meat or something outrageous, but in general, if his moving of Tesla engineers to X for a month helps him I don't care if Tesla does well anyway.
Lawrence Fossi's older substack articles go into great depth about the ought-to-be-illegal level of control that Musk has over the board. Lawrence is a commercial trial lawyer so he views Musk's nonsense in a different, more rigorous light. Link: https://montanaskeptic.substack.com/
What about the (proposed) ending of the federal EV incentives?
Also, not to be nit picky, but how much rural broadband was actually implemented with the infrastructure funding during the Biden years? My understanding is, they didn't actually get much done.
Tesla already has a foothold in the market. Removing incentives then creates a moat around the established player. This is a common strategy in regularity capture.
Alternately, from another context: Musk is now the most powerful man on the planet. Only a fool would throw that away (or make themselves a target of that power).
It's an unresolvable problem. If you think he's that horrible, you can't get rid of him because you're signing your own death warrant (figuratively or literally, depending on how extreme your view is). If he isn't, you've got an incredible asset in your court.
Most Tesla stockholders have made a lot of money, so why would they not be okay with how he's running the company? Just look at the stock price appreciation over the last 1, 5, and 10+ years.
Shareholders have recourses. First, shareholders can vote to get what they want, they can literally vote out the entire board and replace them with anti-Musk directors that will fire him on day one.
Or they can sell their shares and move on or even short the stock if they have problems with Musk. Which some have undoubtedly already done. It appears that even you don't have a strong conviction that Musk's actions are hurting Tesla, or you'd short Tesla stock.
I'm not necessarily a Musk fan, but it was (as I understand it) based on the percentage increase in their share price, something like 10% of the increase in the value to shareholders would go to him. So, for every dollar the shareholders gave him, they got 9 dollars (approximately). So they didn't expect it to be as big as it was, because the appreciation in Tesla's stock price was crazy big. Matt Levine of Bloomberg has written on this in more detail.
I think Tesla really had a chance to make a truly premium electric car, but they lost their way somewhere. It just feels so generic. Even the shapes of their models aren't particularly beautiful, in my opinion.
It's a shame, because they could have produced something really special.
The stock is the product. They wouldn't be one of the most valuable companies in the world if they had focused on producing small batches of kick ass roadsters, they wanted to scale up to mass production of cheap cars as fast as possible (but they lost their focus there too, pivoting to whatever the cybertruck is)
I bought a used Tesla in 2020. It's been a great car. I will never buy another Tesla while Musk is the CEO. He has a stench I will spend the rest of my life trying to wash off myself. He is an anti-brand and he's wrapped himself around Tesla like a python.
I'm not worried about things happening to me and you know that.
It's pretty clear from what I wrote: I'd be tacitly supporting our Vogon overlord. Every time I looked at it I'd feel like crap. It would be like driving a kick me sign, a turd, or a dead fish. It would be a humiliation on wheels. I don't want Musk's miasma clinging to me.
How do you feel about Mercedes, Volkswagen and BMW? Those are off limits too right? Henry Ford, might want to look him up too. Look up Rick Wagnoner who's decisions actually cost lives. Katsuhiko Kawaso look up. Audi CEO. If you're not buying a car from a company who's CEO might have said things you don't agree with a few times, you might have to ride a bike.
Are you being serious here? Those companies have moved past the things you're implying. On the other hand you have the CEO of Tesla dismantling US institutions as a shadow president and doing nazi salutes. You must be trolling or be incredibly dense.
I like to ask rather than assume. One answer is maybe you think the money will be used to do evil.
I don’t really think that’s true. We know tesla is a large company and most of that money will be going to employees and a small percentage to shareholders (this board contains many).
So what I suspect they mean is they are concerned about their personal image which is why the “stench” imagery was used.
Do you seriously believe that most of “that money” will go to the employees?
Big chunk of the revenue might go to employees but Tesla is massively overvaluated company whose market cap is dominated by fictitious capital not tied to any real asset. Its hype believe magic money - a big speculation. And none of that money ever goes to any employee. It all goes to shareholders.
If anything by buying Tesla you are helping to keep this hype alive.
> Do you seriously believe that most of “that money” will go to the employees?
Yes I just looked at their 10k.
80% of the cost of the Tesla is materials and manufacturing (small part of that is employees). Of the remaining 20%, 10% goes to sales and marketing and R&d, where labor is the dominant cost (employees).
We have a model-Y for 18 months, it was our first electric vehicle. In another 18 months when we change the car, I'll get another EV but not a Telsa. Only because of Elon, unfortunatly.
I don't own a car and was looking at options recently. Tesla just doesn't seem that great, and I'm wouldn't say I'm particularly adverse to buying one due to Elon.
- IMO Tesla's minimal M3 interior aesthetic at first was cool because it was different, but really is just quite boring. It looks like necessary cost-saving from a time where EVs were more expensive to manufacture that just never went away.
- Chinese cars look great. I took an Uber ride in a BYD in Mexico City; it was very good. The ride was smooth and the interior was very futuristic. They're apparently cheaper too. They're an option for me because I don't live in the USA.
- It doesn't sit well with me that Tesla has promised so many things it hasn't (and probably will never) deliver. I'm not buying a Tesla expecting to eventually have a robotaxi, or even expecting it to eventually drive itself, but it's still just sketchy that they promise so much on such ambitious (at first) timelines and then just don't deliver.
- Tesla doesn't win on price. There are cheaper options. I feel like I'd be paying for "the brand", but I'm not a "for the brand" buyer.
- The stuff Tesla seems to be better than others at —the speed, the acceleration, or even the autopilot— are not things I personally consider I need. They're cool party tricks. My friends who have Teslas have shown us the acceleration punch, autopilot in the highway, etc. Autopilot almost drove us into another car once, so definitely not paying $8,000 for that. The 0-60 I know I'd barely use, the top speed it's fair to say never, and I wouldn't miss them much as a nicer interior or whatever else I can buy me with what I'd save if I opt for a cheaper option.
I still can get by without a car, so I'd rather wait a year or two to see how the EV market develops. Looking at the options available right now it's just not looking great for Tesla, and outside of the USA and Europe, I'm not even sure it has that much to do with Elon's antics.
These things are all subjective, but.... I've been ingesting negative opinions about Tesla for a about a year perhaps. And now with Musk's public insanities I started to believe those messages.
But then I tried other cars. And now I have no idea what they were talking about.
My 3 year old Tesla is a far better car than any new EV I have managed to test drive so far. They tend to be riddled with pointless or borderline evil crap (e.g. an ID.7 listened to everything I said inside the car and tried some AI shit on me) whereas my car is simple and to the point.
I might not get a new Tesla due to politics and I sure hope the other EV manufacturers are able to catch up before that time comes. Does not look promising right now.
We leased a model 3 about a year ago. The driving experience is good. I love the responsive acceleration -- though that's not particular to Tesla. The car itself is "ok". We wanted to get the Polestar but needed to save money. Range is nowhere near what was promised. We tried the FSD (got two months free trial) and it was terrible; neither my wife or I liked it. Will not go back to a ICE car (charging at home, at night, saves us a lot on gas, plus environmental concerns), but when our lease runs out we will likely not be getting a Tesla as there are others we like better (and that's besides the Elon-wannabe-MOTU factor).
In the China market, Tesla sold the most BEV's in 2024 (1.79 million units), versus BYD which sold 1.76 million units. It's possible, though, that BYD will dominate in 2025; we'll see. I'm not sure what "advanced" means in this context, but Tesla's manufacturing tech is among the most advanced, even if their vehicles are lacking in some features.
Not gonna lie, I've always been slightly bearish on Tesla. Electric powertrains are simple enough that most manufacturers can figure it out, and they've all got far more auto building experience than Tesla...
Tesla did have that Apple-esque hype going for it though, can never underestimate that...
Musk aside, I think I first rode in my friend’s one in 2015 or so, and he was pretty excited, as was I. An electric car! That insane acceleration! But even then he was pointing out the comparatively shitty build quality, and the premium aspect of the brand seems gone with the lower-end models being everywhere. Also how did they fuck up the self-driving stuff so badly?
Feels like they squandered a ten year headstart somehow, and I don’t understand how the current valuation holds. My feeling is they needed a Tim Cook to show up about ten years, and instead got Musk still stalking factory floors. If I needed a car, I’d choose electric, but I’d choose one from a car company these days: all the advantages of a Tesla seems to have dried up … and that’s before the associations with That Man.
I'm curious what's wrong with the self-driving, assuming you're referring to FSD and not Autopilot. Is there a different make of EV that has better self-driving capabilities? Genuinely would like to know.
Oh, that wasn’t comparative, just a note that Elon was promising fully self-driving cars for years, as I understood it, and hasn’t really delivered. I haven’t driven a car for years, but my understanding is that it’s very much still fancy driver assist: I’d have to be watching the whole time to check it isn’t about to kill me. Which is very impressive, sure, but isn’t what was promised.
My faith in Musk has dropped off in three phases, because I used to think he was awesome: “pedo guy” made me think he was an asshole, self-driving cars that don’t coming “next month” for years made me think I couldn’t trust what he says, and now the MAGA stuff makes me question his human decency.
It strikes me as obviously inappropriate to be using the same batteries appropriate for EVs for stationary storage. There must be better packaging/chemistry when you don't need the power density and vibration tolerance that an EV does.
This is correct. The premium for Tesla batteries is outrageous for stationary use. I can get 3-4X the capacity for the same price in a purpose built home power storage cabinet from China, with everything included.
I hate to say it, because, you know, nazi, but I had excellent customer service from Tesla for my power walls. I bought 3 of them several years back, a couple of years after the v2's came out, and one of them failed pretty quickly. They had a replacement unit out and fitted within a few days.
Even outside of the politics angle (which I think is real) -
It's been too much hot air for too long.
Tesla started as basically the lone electric luxury car, and it was entering the market claiming that self-driving was coming soon. Which, when combined with SpaceX launching not long after... seemed like it might be the real deal.
But that was 16 years ago. They kept attention for a long time with repeated promises of FSD, and SpaceX definitely kept things interesting by doing increasingly impressive landings with the boosters, which lent a ton of credibility... but...
The competition is here, now. And instead of getting that self-driving that was promised, it basically capped out at a moderately useful cruise control that still requires your attention and input, and they're now admitting they don't have the ability to shove it over the line,
So instead of being a revolutionary vehicle that frees the driver from the monotony of traffic... it has to actually compete as a traditional car, against a litany of decent entrants into the EV space, contesting it on both quality (Audi, BMW, Rivian, Lexus etc) and price (Chevy, Ford, Honda, Citreon, Leap, Fiat, etc).
And compared to those... Tesla just isn't that good. It still not bad (although for the love of god I wish they would stop with the doors that stop working after a crash) but it's just mostly a solid "meh".
So... it's not really clear how Tesla expects to compete at this point. They aren't the best, and they aren't the cheapest, and they're not settling into the legendary utility status of the Prius (where it's not the best or the cheapest, but it's a good, cheap workhorse).
Could have probably coasted for a long time on goodwill, but Musk seems deadset on burning that to the ground on his drug & ego filled rollercoaster in politics and the media. In theory... they should have plenty of ability to compete, so they aren't done... but they need to ditch the ego that produced the recall prone cybertruck, send Musk to rehab (or exile), and make a real luxury car for a competitive price. I'm not sure they have it in em.
The article gives business reasons in addition to the political entanglement.
People in CA were plenty upset at his Twitter takeover and trashing of employees.
It has been said that the laws of physics limit his wild excursions in product businesses, whereas the "social media" business is largely the wild west thanks to Section 230 carried to extremes, and the capitalist dream of "self regulation", which never works.
In the unbridled worlds of social media and politics, the worst tendencies come out, such as racism [0] and unintended "move fast and break things" consequences, such as not knowing that that DOE cuts affect the nuclear stockpile [1]
[0] The Shadow of Apartheid South Africa in America. (FT)
[1] Trump administration officials fired more than 300 staffers Thursday night at the National Nuclear Security Administration — the agency tasked with managing the nation’s nuclear stockpile — as part of broader Energy Department layoffs, according to four people with knowledge of the matter. (CNN)
> it’s ridiculous to think someone could pretend they can evaluate it without that factor.
When I bought a Ford I didn't stop for a minute to think about the politics of it's CEO. What's ridiculous is that anyone ever thought they could. What they should be saying is "the marketing around my car brand is important to me even after the sale." That just sounds churlish so I guess people deflect to make themselves sound more serious.
> to watch the Tesla owner shift from proud liberal to frugal suburban dad,
It's kind of funny to watch people in here talk about their comparisons between an M3 and a Tesla. As if this board is anywhere /near/ a representative sample of the people who live in this country or their typical financial outlook.
Anyways now that the honeymoon is over perhaps the crowd will be willing to do an _honest_ evaluation of what has always been a substandard manufacturer of vehicles. We've been trying to tell you for a decade now.
> When I bought a Ford I didn't stop for a minute to think about the politics of it's CEO.
Exactly. The fact that people imagine themselves interacting with Elon directly when doing business with Tesla is a product of marketing, which is not a part of Ford’s brand.
For me, Tesla is a negative brand for one reason: trust.
Trust in the quality of the product: The car quality is spotty. A coworker bought an early Model 3. It didn’t even make it 1 night before the main electrical harness shorted and the car failed to power on in the morning. the panel alignment is a notorious issue.
Trust that the company won’t assassinate you in the court of public opinion. Tesla has 2 types of responses when a Tesla car has a high profile crash: quiet and VERY VOCAL about it being the driver’s fault (because they send data to their servers even though I ostensibly own the car). I don’t want my car manufacturer snitching me out to my insurance company, no matter who is at fault.
Options for service: Teslas are not cheap to service (I understand why) and (my information is quite dated), but 3rd party repairs are quite limited or non-existent. I have no option but to trust the manufacturer. There is a lack of competition in repairs/service, so costs are high and wait times are too.
The situation with Musk + Gigafactory Nevada security team framing a worker (IIRC their stance was that he was a leaker and was stealing corporate secrets) and then pressuring the local police to arrest him was suspect. But when the deputies found the man, they found no reason to arrest him.
The extraordinary crash test ratings that “were so high they broken the rating system”, but were later revised much lower were suspect.
The incident where the GigaFactory was found to be improperly disposing of factory byproducts such that they are/could leech into the surrounding environment was ironic for a company that markets itself as “green”.
The dickhead in charge. I get that he’s only a small part of the company, but he’s still a lying (or very reality-challenged) shitposter who moonlights as CEO of a few large companies. Incidents like “Pedo guy”, the Pelosi attacker conspiracy theory, him pumping shitcoins, lying about earning top rankings in 2 popular video games, now deleting federal departments like the same Dept of Energy that invests in innovative companies like Tesla and that does national security work like nuclear inspections. Link to the RationalWiki to remind us about all of the other incidents: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
I don’t know when I soured on the company, but I know I had a neutral-to-positive view in 2016. Maybe Musk was still on his meds. Maybe all of these issues existed, but I was blissfully unaware.
I have a 2018 M3 and was almost tempted by the redesign, until I saw how they butchered the steering wheel, and some of the worst customer support I've ever had to deal with.
Also stiffing customers on what should be warranty repairs, but because the suspension is a wear item they only provide free labor, all 2018 M3 have suspension problems.
Now they are all in on self driving robo-taxis that we all know are going to be far more problematic than Waymo.