The fact that their level of innovation is on par with (ours - 2k years) reflects poorly on them, doesn't it? What is the end game, keep living like neanderthals until sea levels rise and they all swim or paddle away?
There is no requirement that every culture evolve at the same pace and reach the same level of sophistication. Many cultures have reached a quiet, local equilibrium with their environment, having gained an understanding of everything around them and how best to utilize it for the success of the group.
Unfortunately some are extinct now because of the idea that they are somehow less advanced than they should be considering the environment that their culture occupied upon first contact with their more technologically advanced human relatives.
OT:
Gosub100, that's pretty BASIC and gave me a chuckle. It's been a long time since I thought about BASIC. The days where you would buy a computer and pick the programming language and OS that you want to use with it passed a long time ago. Maybe it's what we really need today though.
On one hand this, on the other, being born there is a live sentence. The thought that somewhere exists a kid just like I was, but his fate is to pick roots and other local equilibrium things, all his life… bitter. He’ll never learn about gosub or for-next. If I were among the people who send aid, the first thing I’d send was ‘80s-style OS tablets with infographic manuals how to make games and bulky batteries with solar panels to run these. Because parents have taken me on an “island” in the summer and there was nothing to do except to socialize with clearly criminal peers and the internet was not a thing.
Yet it was exactly this line of thinking that led to, as one example, the Stolen Generations in Australia, and similar atrocities around the world. Maybe they don’t need our saving.
Oh, that slippery slope again! First you give them tablets, and next day their
children were forcibly taken from their families and communities between 1910 and 1970
Excuse me, but this is pretty much different line of thinking from mine. I’m confident that they don’t need children forcibly taken from their families, sure. But tablets are okay.
It was this line of thinking which lead to the One Laptop Per Child failure. See "Why do Western Designs fail in Developing Countries" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRtyxEpoGg
OLPC is discussed from ~9 minutes in, but the whole thing is relevant. OLPC started when Seymour Papert and Nicholas Negroponte went to Senegal to teach people to code, and found that there was no good reason to learn to code if you live in rural Senegal and people were not interested. They decided they knew better and doubled down, making the OLPC project, and when presenting their laptop to the world the African delegation at the conference objected to spending money on laptops instead of infrastructure, schools, water. Negroponte decided the target users didn't know better than him what they needed, so he ignored them.
"One of the things people told me is, look Nicholas you can't just give a kid a laptop and walk away. Yes you can". he said. And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops.
> And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops.
This strongly implies one thing lead to the other, but WP isn't as committed to that link, providing a list of alternative explanations for poor adoption.
Also, I'm not sure how this constitutes "this line of thinking" comparing a developing nation to an island with no contact.
The way you've phrased your comment seems like you're trying to make a rebuttal to something but I'm not sure how "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything. You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games?
The line of thinking is "they must want for their lack of addiction machines. I want to gift them and they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do, despite having none of my upbringing or cultural background or surroundings". No outsider even understands the Sentinelese language[1]. I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling. They're photographed on the beaches with bows and arrows[2]. They likely have no electricity. The idea that what they need next, what they would thank you for, is a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out. It's as ridiculous as saying what they need is a powdered wig so they can look fashionable when they next go to the Vienna opera houses, or that they need a timeshare in the Florida Keys for their summer holidays.
> "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything.
It could have been none of those reasons, or only some of them.
The point is your quoted line mentions one reason for failure to suggest the project/lead was naive,
but that may not have been a significant impediment.
> You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games?
The African delegation would rather spend money on infrastructure, schools, water; is this the same in uncontacted North Sentinel Island? Africa is still developing, NSI is undeveloped, I think that can make a big difference, yes.
> I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling ... They likely have no electricity.
Doesn't that support my argument above?.. That NSI is v. different from Africa and hence the OLPC project?
> a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out
ok, but you're comparing the "same line of thinking" that seems specifically invalid in this case, but not for the OLPC case that you're comparing it to. It's also a bit of a straw man (in the case of OLPC) - the computers had many modifications made to them to make them require fewer cultural norms, it wasn't at all "Mavis Beacon". I don't see the original proposition "they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do". As such they weren't designed or distributed for uncontacted tribes.
> "I don't see the original proposition "they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do""
The parent comments in this thread, by wruza: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42989167 who clearly wanted to program in BASIC when on an island holiday and is imagining a Sentinelese child is the same as him and would want an "80's style OS tablet", that's the line of thinking I was talking about referencing Seymour Papert's line of thinking in the video I linked and making the same mistakes/assumptions.
The part in wruza's comment "with infographic manuals" - from what I can tell the Sentinelese have no cultural background for taking instructions from a piece of paper, which we have drilled into us since kindergarten if not earlier. No lifetime of experience for interpreting infographics which we have (fire exit signs, toilet symbols, all kinds of shops and services markers). No lifetime experience using technical gadgets, which we have back through TVs and tape recorders, remote controls and so on. They have not much record of being interested in and curious about things from the outside, we geeks have been raised to be interested in new technology, most Western adults aren't even interested. And many more, the idea of a thing you touch and it lights up - we have a lifetime of electric light experience, they don't.
The "line of thinking" is that they would see this thing on the beach and they would want to know what it was because I would want to know what the gadget was when I was a kid; that they would associate the laminated paper with the device, because I would; that they would interpret the marks on the paper as instructions, because I would; that they would want to follow the instructions expecting something interesting to happen, because I follow instructions; that they would successfully do it because I would keep trying until the thing I was expecting happened, despite them not knowing what to expect... etc. etc. is all steeped in "they would think like me" thinking, despite them having none of the surrounding culture and upbringing which taught us to think like we do.
This is the line of thinking the video describes Seymour Papert having, which failed with OLPC. Where he assumed children learn to walk without being taught to walk, which they don't. He assumed 12 year old children could repair the OLPC without guidance or any experience working with or repairing comptuers or electronics, which they couldn't. He assumed they would want to code on the laptops and would just figure it out without guidance because "children are naturally curious" which is a Western learned behaviour since we stopped making children work in fields and up chimneys and looking after their younger siblings and instead spend years encouraging curious playful education.
> "is this the same in uncontacted North Sentinel Island? Africa is still developing, NSI is undeveloped, I think that can make a big difference, yes."
If giving the OLPC to Africans and Uruguayans where they know what it is, know what it's for, are expecting it, have schoolrooms, classes, writing, teachers, hired people to teach the teachers how to use the laptops, deployed electric charging points and wifi towers for them, tried to use them, and still overall the project failed to achieve its goals, how is dropping a tablet on an even less prepared people possibly going to be more successful?
> "the computers had many modifications made to them to make them require fewer cultural norms, it wasn't at all "Mavis Beacon""
As per the video I linked, many of their modifications were to make them look like a pretty children's toy to appeal to Western donors, not to make them practical.
I’m not that interested in this heated continuation of my silly idea, but there’s a thing I want to share.
I got my first “computer” when no advanced electronics existed in the area. The best they could get was simple fixed-eink(?) display with some buttons and a trivial “chip”. But later all the kids got nintendo or better PCs, while I got nothing due to no money and “you have a computer already”.
And that was my driver. I had no games like SMB/SF/etc and no internet. This exact combo made me learn BASIC and later 8080 assembly (sick), by the alien manuals which I had no idea how to read, cause I knew the letters but not words. But I had a dictionary. Almost no one else learned how to program a computer, despite the abundance.
You got the idea, I think.
Ofc in a real aid case this idea will be lost in translation and they’ll receive a bunch of samsung tablets, completely useless on that island.
I assume you mean modern tablets. Shall we pick Android or iOS? Because since we are in the business of civilising why the hell not! And if Android, then can we begin with an e-ink display? :)
Something sinclair-like, but in modern packaging with modern energy saving and eink and touch kbd. So it can work from sunlight, run for weeks and endure sand.
I’d even budget one for myself, to speak the same language, so to say.
Still OT but a nice segue that jogs my memories of the first PCs that I had available. A friend's Dad bought him a Compaq Deskpro that looked a lot like a portable sewing machine with QuickBASIC and my parents bought me a 128k Mac and QuickBASIC for the Mac. We jointly developed software using QuickBASIC that ran under Apple's System5? OS and various DOSes in PC land (DRDOS, OS/2, DOS2-5, Windows 286 and 3.1, etc).
I think that if you initiated your plan to send those tablets, etc that you should consider sending late 90's model tablets (there weren't many tablet style computers until the 90's I think) with period correct software since a lot of the personal computers, OSes and programming languages available for the 80's rigs required use of multiple disks due to memory and hard drive space constraints.
Far too many times I would be in the middle of an operation and be met with a prompt to load a specific disk from the set of disks for the software that I was using so that the software could perform some operation that wouldn't fit in memory on the disks that had already been read. If you passed them around to kids today they might quickly lose interest in the process. You could of course use those old school PCs to help teach them something of computer architecture and operations so that they can more easily grasp the functionality than if they were handed modern rigs with huge hard drives and zero disk space issues so that things run so quickly there is no time to teach about Disk I/O, clock speeds, etc.
Yeah, I meant “style”, not literal 80s tech. I’m just used to subtracting a few years due to growing up in the location that had everything too late. I think that for learning the pre-IBM-PC spirit would be the best. Basically a ROM BASIC style “OS” with an SSD chip as RAM+ROM and some mainstream embedded CPU chip. Flat everything, but in abundance. The key idea here is to give them INKEY, LINE,BF and PSET before they learn to integrate a payment widget into their wordpress deployment.
> On one hand this, on the other, being born there is a live sentence. The thought that somewhere exists a kid just like I was, but his fate is to pick roots and other local equilibrium things, all his life… bitter.
You're judging the possible happiness of someone in a completely different geography and culture according to your own.
Just because you depend on wifi for your happiness, that doesn't mean everyone does.
The hypothetical kid probably has excellent, fulfilling relationships with his family and friends, probably feels satisfied with a meal of fish that you couldn't even imagine how good it tastes, is content with the sounds of nature, singing, staring into a fire and telling stories. Perhaps he can trap, kill and prepare an animal for eating and enjoys the esteem of his peers for doing so.
He doesn't owe rent. He doesn't need insurance. He doesn't worry about getting to work 5 minutes late, or working overtime, or whether the apples are "organic" or contaminated with pesticides, his parents are always home -- and probably his whole village or tribe are his family and teachers.
That kid has his own way of being happy and fulfilled and content, just as valid -- and perhaps more so -- than yours.
You got it backwards. I’m not judging him if that’s the case. I’m just empathetic to the ones that may exist as described.
And no, I don’t believe in the happy-life-in-the-forest. The first thing “aboriginals” do is to get themselves sneakers, t-shirts and soap. Although I’m not gonna defend or explore this further, believe what you believe.
As far as I’m informed, particularly Sentinelese don’t even have a constant fire to enjoy that tasty fish I couldn’t even imagine.
> And no, I don’t believe in the happy-life-in-the-forest.
Jon Jandai moved from a village in rural Thailand to Bangkok, and took up a fulltime labouring job. He struggled to afford enough food to eat, slept in a shared room which was too hot, saved for a month to buy a pair of jeans to wear and realised he was still the same person and still unhappy, and he saw house prices out of reach with educated high-earners working for 30 years to pay a mortgage.
He didn't like it, and moved back to his village. He spends a month planting rice and a month harvesting rice and gets enough rice to feed his family of six for a year, and several times more than that leftover to sell at the market. 2 months a year work, ten months free time. He spends fifteen minutes a day tending a half-acre garden and gets enough vegetables for six people to eat, and more to sell at the market. And he fishes. He built a house with earthen building in 3 months.
He self-reports being much much happier, whether you believe it or not.
>As far as I’m informed, particularly Sentinelese don’t even have a constant fire to enjoy that tasty fish I couldn’t even imagine.
Actually they apparently do have a constant fire if they are anything like the related groups living on neighboring islands.
From the link describing technologies available in the region [0] please see the part about fire. If you follow the link back to other chapters fire is also mentioned so that it becomes apparent that it is an important thing in their culture. One link somewhere had an entry that described them as preferring to remain in their camps at night and being afraid of the dark.
Anyway, enjoy the chapters in that book if you have. There's a lot there.
Ignoring the fact that our own level of "innovation" as you call it is built on centuries of brutal exploitation of land and resources and people.
And the "sea level rise" you mention is a consequence of that "innovation", and our enlightened culture keeps building houses next to the sea using energy sources that contribute to the rising sea-level.
Very little of what you buy these days is what it costs (a) to manufacture it and (b) to dispose of it. Where are those costs bourne? Slaves for (a) and the future and other-peoples-back-yards for (b).
So, I would say that their culture is sustainable, and doesn't have even one percent of our own self-inflicted, self-destructive, intractable problems.
