But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, not because there is any evidence behind them but only because they were uttered by someone they trust wholeheartedly, and this person does not have any hint of medical training, that nobody should say they are stupid, but only quietly believe it in their minds?
So what is the takeaway here? When referring to trump supporters, follow the line of reasoning:
- Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy
- Bleach as a covid remedy is obviously stupid (we should both be agreeing on this one)
- Trump supporters support such statements from trump
- But pointing that out is "calling them stupid" and thus we shouldn't do it?
I'm genuinely curious about this because it makes up so many discussions with trump supporters in a nut shell. I don't want to condescend to them, but I also shouldn't be pointing out things that genuinely are stupid about trump, because doing so would offend them too? What should I do, just pretend all the dumb things Trump does (and that his supporters support him for) don't exist? Just so I can find common ground? (I mean, strictly speaking this is exactly what I do in polite company with trump supporters. I just pretend all the really dumb shit doesn't exist and just talk to them about policy and stuff, and in the end I end up finding that we agree on 90% of stuff and we go on our way. And they continue to support trump for reasons I don't understand.)
> Trump supporters support such statements from trump
Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who used bleach? Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who thinks bleach for covid is a good idea?
If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid?
almost everyone I know voted for Trump, I know a lot of people, none of them ever drank bleach (as I'm writing this, I remembered I know someone who drank bleach as a little kid and had to go to the hospital, my point stands though)
But my larger point is that his supporters support such statements. Not that they’re stupid enough to inject bleach (although that did happen.) It’s more that, when bringing up that he even said shit like that, trump supporters get offended that you’re condescending to them. Like, how dare you bring up that thing he actually said.
And when I say they support statements like that, it’s because they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it, trying to find ways of charitably interpreting his drivel. That’s what “support such statements” means.
You believing that people actually drank bleach and weren't pranking poison control is your choice.
> they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it
look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking [0]. His supporters know he's not a lunatic, we've heard him talk for almost 10 years. Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said, actually imagine a normal friend of yours saying it. You wouldn't all of the sudden think he's a lunatic. Your 1st assumption would be "maybe they discussed something to do with one of the chemicals in one type of disinfectant possibly having another use" if that's a little crazy, maybe he's tired or joking or something.
Point is, in Bayesian terms, it really depends on your priors.
[0] I thought of an interesting exercise: If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan, I'll listen to an episode of your choice that you think will enlighten me
> look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking
I have all the god damned time. He was president for 4 years! I had to! (At least as someone who tried to follow the news then, it was unavoidable.) Most recent time I listened to him for an extended period was during the debates, where I watched the whole thing uninterrupted. We can get into the whole eating dogs thing but I'm sure you're tired of it by now.
> Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said
I would think they're pretty dumb, but I'd brush it off and still be friends with them.
But here's the thing: my friends aren't president of the united states. I believe we should hold him to a higher standard, especially in the beginning of a pandemic when misinformation was rampant and it was very important we didn't hear nonsense like this from our president. The whole "people say shit like that all the time" trope is the exact problem I have with trump and his supporters. I don't want our president to have the intelligence level of a typical "friend" who thinks putting bleach in your body might be a good way to fight an infection.
> If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan
This premise isn't even true. Trump did NOT float this idea.
This is something Democrats believe though. Which says a lot more about Democrats than it does about Trump supporters.
As someone replied to you: No Trump supporters actually believe in bleach as a remedy, but tons of Democrats do. What does that tell you about their respective intelligence or education?
> Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me
So we go back to my point. Am I supposed to just pretend he doesn’t say shit like this, so that I avoid offending trump supporters?
And interestingly the word "bleach" does not show up in the quote.
And when he says "disinfectant" he means that literally as some kind of disinfecting medication. The next sentence mentioning "medical doctors" should have clued you into that.
So, now that you know that, what's wrong with what he said? (Oh, I'm well aware that the media rapidly decided disinfectant meant bleach, and then went on a rampage about that, but that's not what he said, and also not what he meant.)
Which is kind of the point isn't it? You are accusing Trump supporters of lack of knowledge but the shoe is actually on the other foot. The entire outrage was literally an invention of his opponents.
Which is also why Republicans laugh at liberals who complain about this stuff, because unlike the liberals, they heard what he actually said, and not some fictional version.
There’s that bending over backwards I was talking about in a sibling thread. Trump supporters do everything they can to twist his very obvious words to mean something that isn’t as insane. Then they turn it around and say I’m the crazy one for listening to his words.
I’m not accusing trump supporters of being stupid this, I’m accusing them of supporting what he says even though he’s obviously off his rocker.
He’s talking about putting disinfectants inside your body. He’s not using some code word for medicine. He’s talking about how fast disinfectants kill Covid outside the body, and that we should try putting them inside the body.
At this point I’m done with this entire thread, dealing with his apologists is going to give me an aneurysm. I weep for our country.
> to twist his very obvious words to mean something that isn’t
Is English not your first language? Those words aren't that hard to understand.
> He’s talking about how fast disinfectants kill Covid outside the body, and that we should try putting them inside the body.
So you're fine twisting his words to mean something else, and then accusing others of doing it?
Do you really not realize you have just then, taken his words, re-interperted them, then got mad about a fictional interpretation?
How do you not realize that everything you said about other applies FAR FAR more to you?
> dealing with his apologists is going to give me an aneurysm
Understanding spoken English makes me an apologist?
> I weep for our country.
We all do, but for very different reasons. Liberals lost the election because they can't seem to stop demonizing the other side, and people are sick of it. Perhaps take a lesson from that.
Just stop. Please. Please fucking stop. It's fucking exhausting dealing with people like you.
Let's dig up more of the quote, hopefully I won't pass out with rage having to type this shit:
> THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. So I asked Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you're totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that that hasn't been checked, but you're going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you're going to test that too. It sounds interesting.
> ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: We'll get to the right folks who could.
> THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.
He was JUST TALKING about how ultraviolet light would be great to get inside your body. If you'd like, we can talk about how FUCKING STUPID THAT IS on the face of it. Let's inject UV light into your veins somehow, sounds great.
Then he talks about "a disinfectant".
Now, your interpretation of "a disinfectant" is that he's using some strange coded word for plain old medication. After he was just talking about ultraviolet light.
So your contention is that RIGHT AFTER talking about ultravilot light being put inside your body to cure covid, he's now using "a disinfectant" to mean "a vaccine we haven't yet discovered" or some codeword for "medicine"??? How would that even make sense in this context?
He's talking about bleach. Nobody uses "disinfectant" to mean fucking anything else than "a thing you put on surfaces to kill microbes", like bleach, peroxide, etc etc etc.
YOU are the one that is twisting words to find a charitable interpretation of "disinfectant" to mean anything other than EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT, which is some fucking bonkers tirade about how "if we can kill covid cells outside the body with things like ultraviolet light and disinfectants, then we should try doing that inside the body!" He didn't suddenly switch topics to talk about medicine.
> At no point in the media briefing did the then-president recommend that people inject bleach or other disinfectants into their bodies. He merely asked experts whether disinfectants could be injected to tackle COVID-19; a stance he later rowed back on when pressed by a journalist.
Right! He didn't say you should inject bleach, he merely opined that maybe we can inject disinfectants into people to tackle covid.
And you'll also notice that I DIDN'T SAY that he TOLD people to inject bleach. Only that he FLOATED the idea, which is EXACTLY what he did, if you take the common, everybody-in-the-english-speaking-world interpretation of "disinfectant" to mean "products that kill microbes that you absolutely should not ingest", with bleach being a perfect example.
Let's look what wikipedia says about a disinfectant, shall we?
> A disinfectant is a chemical substance or compound used to inactivate or destroy microorganisms on inert surfaces.[1] Disinfection does not necessarily kill all microorganisms, especially resistant bacterial spores; it is less effective than sterilization, which is an extreme physical or chemical process that kills all types of life.[1] Disinfectants are generally distinguished from other antimicrobial agents such as antibiotics, which destroy microorganisms within the body, and antiseptics, which destroy microorganisms on living tissue.
- Disinfectant is something you use on surfaces
- Antibiotics are things you ingest
- Antiseptics are something you use on living tissue
So you'd agree that trump meant "We should try using things we normally use on surfaces, and see what happens if we inject it"? It's just the word "bleach" you're hung up on?
Ok, then fine. Trump didn't float bleach as a covid remedy. He floated "disinfectants you'd normally use on surfaces, but injected into your body" as a covid remedy. I get it now!
> Liberals lost the election because they can't seem to stop demonizing the other side, and people are sick of it. Perhaps take a lesson from that
"You see if you were just nice to the terrorists they wouldn't have blown up the building. Perhaps take a lesson from that. We should be nicer to terrorists so they don't kill us."
> However the lack of education makes people gullible and easy to manipulate. From bleach as a Covid remedy...
You may not realize you said it, but you said it.