I also lived in two of the richest countries with a social medical system
My experience is that GPs are over-worked, under paid (given their responsibilities), and can only afford to do shallow diagnostic in the 5-10 minutes they've got per patient. That's explained by a slow but relentless dismantling of any operational margin that existed in the system, whether it's financial, time etc.
I'm talking about the situation in France and the UK, not sure where you are, my point is that I agree about the system failing us, there's a lot to be said about what could be done but that's outside my area of expertise. I'm just being a little nicer to the doctors, as there's only so much they can do given the means they're given.
> My experience is that GPs are over-worked, under paid (given their responsibilities
Their work hours are no longer than anyone else, their pay is way above the average, and their liability is as low as possible.
> and can only afford to do shallow diagnostic in the 5-10 minutes they've got per patient.
My doctor spends it explaining to me how I should just not care that something is wrong and accept that the medical industry is too incompetent to figure out what it is and that there are people who have worse problems, even though he has no idea what is actually wrong.
> Their work hours are no longer than anyone else, their pay is way above the average, and their liability is as low as possible.
YMMV but as a software developer I am certainly not going to start throwing stones in a glass house. :)
Also consider additional time and cost of a doctor completing their education while working up to a max of 80h per week, which would be illegal for any reasonable profession.
> > Their work hours are no longer than anyone else, their pay is way above the average, and their liability is as low as possible.
> YMMV but as a software developer I am certainly not going to start throwing stones in a glass house. :)
I have absolutely no idea of what's involved when working as a GP/consultant, so I probably grossly underestimate their job, but in my interaction with them (involving my health as well as my family's) most of them seem to just put your case into a flowchart and prescribe along, because that's what reduces the liability to 0 and works most of the time. But if that's their job, they'll eventually be replaced by LLMs.
When you don't fall into the typical case, you'll have to go through retelling the whole story to all the flowchart ones (easily 80%) only to find along the way snake oil salesmen (10%), honest "I can't take your case" individuals (5%), and the 1-5% which actually feel like scientists and problem solvers.
(percentages pulled out of my rear but that's roughly my experience)
> Also consider additional time and cost of a doctor completing their education while working up to a max of 80h per week, which would be illegal for any reasonable profession.
I'm not sure why the educational requirements are so extreme for all doctors. Certainly for some, like surgeons, I get it, but for my GP I think it's a total farce. I don't make the rules though, I just can see a broken system when it's right in front of me.
Not sure how it is outside the US, but subscribing nurse-practitioners (requires just 2 additional years after a nursing degree) have been quickly replacing GP docs in the US for this reason. They'll send you to a specialist just like a GP would. It's all the same problems in terms of the underlying model, but the financial and time costs to the system are lower.
I'm not totally sold on what I'm selling though. My spouse has been a nurse practitioner for over 10 years; she had the option of becoming an MD but picked that route because she saw the grueling 80+ hr work weeks of older doctor friends and decided it wasn't for her. Unfortunately, she's still stuck with only 20 minutes for sometimes extremely complex patients that require a great deal of research and follow-through outside of work hours, and the extra slack in the system that is provided by her lower wages has just gone to hiring additional administrative middlemen that are seldom capable of actually filling in the gap, whether for reasons of liability, knowledge, skill, or motivation. These positions exist to try and ease the pressure on docs just like NPs exist to ease the pressure on docs, but it doesn't work because at the end of the day you need someone who can hold the liability (both legal and moral) and the knowledge (the correct diagnosis and the correct plan of action) within the same person.
Just like in software, where throwing more developers at a problem doesn't guarantee your problem gets solved more efficiently, for much the same reason. You need somebody who understands the domain, understands the tools, understands the business framework, and is ready to take responsibility for solving the problem. Each additional person introduces information overhead that makes each one of those tasks more complicated.
Excellent article in Bloomberg on this subject: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-07-24/is-the-nu... (non-paywall'd link: https://archive.ph/03f4u) -- not the standard r/noctor drivel, but a well-researched and sources cited article exploring this phenomenon. Not discussed in the article is the phenomenon of more unnecessary testing with less trained providers doing the ordering which has downstream effects of cost and overdiagnosis.
I agree with a lot of the critiques of our healthcare system and as an emergency department doctor share them, but I doubt LLMs or NPs are going to fix our system. I also have a lot of concerns about broader societal trends in looking for pathologies / diagnoses in ourselves to justify or validate not feeling "well", repeatedly asking for more and more tests or self-identifying with a nebulous diagnosis and then incorporating that into identity as one who is perpetually sick. Particularly with younger generation, this is a really big issue and I don't see it getting better.
My wife is a doctor (GP, before internal medicine in biggest hospitals), experience with France and Switzerland. What you say is true - they all start as naive optimists who get treated brutally by whole healthcare system first 7-10 years after school, everybody knows it, often illegal from hospitals but good luck suing your employer. Burned out, 60-70 hour work weeks with weekends is the standard, night shifts, a lot of responsibility with little help/oversight. Always 1 oversight away from harming/killing somebody. Many in Switzerland that are Swiss dropped out, foreigners don't have it so easy.
Then afterwards they are put into position where they have 30 minutes for patients (in France its ridiculous 15 mins, saving money = worse diagnosis/treatment, no way around it). Don't expect miracles if they see 20 folks like you daily, ideally with very vague problems like chest pain which can be anything from sprained muscle due to bad sleeping position last night to heart attack, while having 10 other comorbidities and taking various medication.
Doctors behave as whole system forces them to behave.
Doctors burning-out is probably the worse red-flag you could have for a health system. It's frightening to think the person diagnosing my parents and children might not be in full possession of their capacity or make rash decisions.
I'm seeing the same pattern for many crucial functions having been pushed over the line during the last two decades or so. Whether it's a doctor, a teacher, a nurse, a childminder, the police, etc. All the jobs that are essential for a developed society have crumbled down to the point I'd discourage any young person to pursue a career in that sector.
If that worries you (and it should), never ever go to hospital during night (unless serious emergency of course) or very early morning, or generally just before the end of shifts. You will get potentially worse treatment by definition, depends on many things but probability is against you.
Also, the bigger the hospital usually the better experts they have on critical stuff (and more chance you won't wait long for ie CT or MRI), smaller hospitals and clinics just forward serious patients to big ones.
At the end healthcare is just another branch of market and all woes that apply to rest of us apply to them, no magical immunity due to more noble profession.
My experience is that GPs are over-worked, under paid (given their responsibilities), and can only afford to do shallow diagnostic in the 5-10 minutes they've got per patient. That's explained by a slow but relentless dismantling of any operational margin that existed in the system, whether it's financial, time etc.
I'm talking about the situation in France and the UK, not sure where you are, my point is that I agree about the system failing us, there's a lot to be said about what could be done but that's outside my area of expertise. I'm just being a little nicer to the doctors, as there's only so much they can do given the means they're given.