Well, then it's time to reinvent academic publishing. (Personally, I've found off-the-cuff personal blogs can be far more insightful than oh so many stuffy academic articles I've read. If there's one thing about programming culture I've gleaned: those of us who connect the rubber to the road actually know something about knowledge-production.)

P.s. I think you can say "ass" on the internet. Hell, in 2024, you can practically kiss ass on the internet.

I've been to both (funny you assume otherwise), it's not even a question.

The worse jobs are usually worse than the average academic environments but the averages are far apart

In a typical phd program you have a lot more freedom (as long as you publish), a lot more flexibility than in a typical 9-5 job, and a lot less politics on average. Pressure is about the same.

And a risible salary

And the possibility of doing a post-doc somewhere else for another dogsht salary (maybe complementing it with some teaching), then to maybe be able to continue in academia.

just go around YT and see the average opinion on a PhD and postdocs. Or google PhD and "mental health issues".

Not sure who are you arguing with. I compared learning on your own with learning in grad school. To prepare for real world jobs. Grad school is better imo.

This sounds like justification for a culture of hazing.