I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, this strikes me as a very novel argument in favor of religion, and is more convincing to me than most others.
I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.
> I initially read this comment to mean “we wanted larger family, the secular world doesn’t do that, we became religious and we’re happy”. Am I understanding that correctly?
Kinda. We were open to believing in God. But the start of our journey was just realizing the secular world had nothing to offer us. Then we met a religious homeschooling family w/ 5 kids and they gave us a glimpse of what was possible. So we started swimming in that direction and it just kept getting better the farther out we swam.
> I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.
Here’s the thing: if you’re not a militant atheist and you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself. Since you’re secular, I’ll explain it like this: we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community. And that’s what I used to believe. But now I know those were just the breadcrumbs I needed to find my way.
Oof, my experience is the exact opposite. I was raised Catholic, and my family attended mass every week. I realized I didn't believe in god in my early teens. For many years after that I really wished I could believe, tried to believe. My parents had me enrolled in CCD (for those of you not Catholic, that's basically the Catholic version of what's colloquially known as "Sunday School") through 8th grade. I participated in some of my church's youth groups, and was friends with quite a few religious people.
But it just didn't work. I wasn't a militant atheist; I just questioned things, and was frustrated when my elders would shut me down and hand-wave my questions away.
I gave up in my early 20s. That was 20+ years ago. I'm still an atheist. I don't have a problem with religious people, unless they try to force their beliefs on others (especially when they try to use the political and legal process to do so). But most folks seem to just want to live and let live. But I no longer think there's something wrong with me, or long to be "normal" like my peers and believe in a god. I can't imagine ever believing, regardless of what communities I find myself a member of.
Questioning things is how one truly reaches God. Your elders failed you.
Some people just hold beliefs because they were born with them, not because they necessarily believe in them. I know these types because I've lived my whole life around many of them. Thanks to them, I've come to despise the modern concept of organizated religions, though I still value religion itself.
This is why I tend to view modern religious leaders as parasites. They convince other people that they [the other people] can't understand religion on their own,that religion is mysterious and only those well versed may speak on the art.
By convincing people of such things, said people then outsource the job of thinking to those select few, and you're left with mindless brains who can't figure out the answers to a child's questions about God.
I ask myself questions, I always do, and I try to look for answers, for each question answered brings me one step closer to God, and by extension, brings me some measure of peace in life.
> you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself
Interestingly, this is what turned me into an atheist at a rather young age. A friend invited me to a childrens' religious/social group wherein they explained that most science is actually incorrect; the earth is only 6000 years old, evolution is a lie created by the evil Darwin... that sort of thing. In my head, their version of Christianity fell apart and the rest quickly followed.
Yeah, you thought they were idiots and formed antibodies against their belief system. But there are sophisticated religious people. And IMO sophisticated religious people are much more likely to have pondered deeply the ineffability of existence and accepted that it is incomprehensible except by faith. Whereas atheists just want to point out that it can’t be turtles all the way down and then become suddenly disinterested in the question beyond that.
Oh, I got the academic, Jesuit-style teaching from my Catholic church and the decade or so of CCD I was compelled to attend as well. I actually spent years thinking rather deeply about it, but that doesn't mean it stuck - I suppose some of us just aren't capable of believing.
You do remind me of one of my favorite Douglas Adams quotes though:
> “Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.”
I'm imagining a dialog in which I ask, "So why does it all exist then?" And you reply, "Well, I'm not sure, no-one is. But it's not God." To which I respond, "My brother in faith!" and embrace you. After that we ponder the ineffable over a few pints.
“suppose some of us just aren't capable of believing.”
That’s such an obvious fallacy, you should do yourself a favor and introspect how such an absurd idea came into your head. Who put it there?
To see it’s absurd, consider, have you ever changed your mind about something? If yes, then it’s obviously possible and maybe even likely that you can and will one day change your views on divinity? If course it’s possible, and actually quite common. And yes, it comes as a surprise.
> Kinda. We were open to believing in God. But the start of our journey was just realizing the secular world had nothing to offer us.
I'm curious how you interprete "secular"? Cause it seems you're setting it up to mean anti-religion which is certainly not what the usual definition is.
> Here’s the thing: if you’re not a militant atheist and you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself.
I won't question your own experience, but you're being way too broad here. I know many people who are not "militant atheists" but still don't believe in organized religion. I also have a lot of friends whose families are extremely religious - meaning they're around them all the time - none of them has been pushed or convinced to join. They just don't observe prayer etc compared to their friends.
> Since you’re secular, I’ll explain it like this: we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community. And that’s what I used to believe. But now I know those were just the breadcrumbs I needed to find my way.
This sounds more like a self-justification than something actually supported by science. Please note I'm not trying to "religion shame you". Just curious. :)
That’s awesome. I have good news and bad news — my family is extremely Christian, we were missionaries to Turkey for ten years, I’ve converted people, etc. It is a very close community, and I do think the community aspect will just keep getting better for you. At the same time, different people will feel differently about what truth is. I’m agnostic now, because I feel like I would be lying to my family if I said I still believe it all. The mismatch in belief does cause some stress sometimes, even though it’s still mostly a sweet community that I love to have in my life. Your kids might feel the same in 20 years. I’m sure they’ll still love you dearly anyways, just be sure that your pastor/church/community will still accept them as well, if they do walk away from the faith.
> we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community
So brainwashing-lite? Man I'm glad whatever "appropriate mental machinery" that was in my head kicked in and got me the fuck away from communities like this.
We prolly would have ended up at a similar parish or Orthodox, but finding our parish was a happy accident. I don’t have enough experience to tell you how to find something similar in another city, but if I had to guess, it’d be something like: join the Catholic homeschool community in your area and pay attention to which parishes people are commuting to. Other strong indicators are probably some amount of Latin in the masses, strong traditional music program, etc.
Are atheists only "militant" in your point of view? As an atheist I can say that the only way for me to believe in gods is to simply fake it. This believing "at will" is rather interesting concept, but I honestly can't comprehend it.
It’s like love. You fall in love, you fall in love with God. The rest is just garbled mumbling to yourself and others. And like love, it is your experience of it and your view of your beloved that matters, who cares what others think. This is how it is with actual belief. You experience something that shatters the illusion. Once that happens, you belong to God bothered people. And yes, those who have never experienced love also think love is “just chemical processes in the body”. But it’s not, otherwise they’d bottle that chemical process and make a zillion selling it. (They try with drugs but is just ain’t the same thing, you know?)
If falling in love with God conveys truth/reality, then how do you reconcile two people who are both "in love with God" but have incompatible beliefs about God?
I know a person who fell in love with a woman that didn't exist. Person A (my friend) was straight. Person B was gay and fell in love with Person A, and then created Person C (fictitious person) with the hopes that Person A would grow to love Person C, and eventually Person B would tell the truth but that Person A's love was pure enough that he didn't care about the deception and wanted to be with Person B.
Hell of a story, but the reason I mention it is because Person A falling in love with Person C didn't make Person C real. How does that work with God?
you do not have beliefs about the one you love. seeing truth/reality is when you stop cheating on the one you love. so love becomes real when your hearts sees clear. and since this is not “fiction” but rather the Reality of your Subjective Experience that is the only thing you ‘know’ for a ‘near at hand, within sight, felt by heart’. Love always tames Reason. whether imaginal love, temporal love, or divine love. The former are shattered when they are subjected to ‘external reality’.
The acid test of true love for God is that Reality confirms it.
This strikes close to home. Until you've experienced love, you cannot understand it. Doubly so for the purest forms of love, love above human love.
I wager we avoid that kind of love because it boils down to "sacrifice yourself for the good that's outside you". In human terms it's something like parents sacrificing themselves for their children, or friends sacrificing themselves for their friends[1]. Losing something painfully that cannot be replaced in the world. A world where we have all the time, money, internet to distract us from hardship & suffering that brings us closer to goodness.
I personally didn't believe in God until I received a tiny part of his love for myself.
don’t you believe that for a second. God does not deal with tiny graces. it’s just a process and then it becomes overwhelming and all resistance is gone. all of it.
that doesn’t provide the real thing - it is a ‘Fire’ destroys the person. God’s Love is a ‘Light’ builds you up and makes you strong and vital. You really have to experience it - and read Pascal’s wager in the light of his expressing a subjective personal understanding of spiritual experience not a logical formula for converting non-experienced. (Pascal got a hit of Love from God not a hit of opium.)
How would you know without experiencing it? The experience of joy someone else gets from anything- physical activity, their own religion, love, drugs (however fleeting) is as valid as yours.
it’s a matter of duration not external evaluation. i say the “real thing” since that comes to you rather than you affecting a state of mind-body. there is no street corner for someone to deal you that drug. this is the fundamental difference that is discernible from without. you can see the source of one type of bliss (and you can buy it) and the other one is subject to endless debate except by those who are blissed /out!
> I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.
There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer.
People just want to be part of a community. Most of the time the only available open communities are church communities, so that's better than nothing.
Yes, I totally agree. I'm simply saying that you don't have to be uber religious to be a part of a church community. A good church should make you feel accepted no matter who you are.
There are perhaps exceptions, e.g. if you are intentionally trying to harm the church or members of it, but otherwise the church should accept you as you are -- "true" believer or not.
In practice you will probably find a lot of "bad" churches, so you'll probably have to shop around a little bit.
> Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer.
I really appreciate this view, but certainly some people do have a problem with it. I think it would be especially awkward if you spend a significant amount of your life there, raise kids, etc, but never claim the religion is true. It almost sounds like a cringe-comedy movie
If your values and actions align with the religious community, and you're okay being around people who are religious/spiritual, I believe it can be mutually beneficial.
If your values and actions don't align with the religious community, then you should still be accepted, but if you don't have belief, then it's unlikely you'll stay for long.
^ note: by "should" I mean that, at least in my view, a "real" Christian should be accepting and not judge others. In practice nobody lives up to this, but it can at least inform how you should feel, e.g. if you feel judged it's saying more about others than it says about you.
^ double note: "real" Christian is incredibly hard to define. The Bible can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately what guides me is trying to do what I think is right, using the Bible as one source of information.
Absolutely agree with everything you said. The biblical Jesus sets a high standard that is impossible to live up to. Even though I don’t believe now, I love people that try to live to that standard, and I aspire to as well
Except the whole dooming most of humanity to external lakes of fire. And maybe terrorizing kids with the threat that they'll commit the unforgivable sin, and be destined for said lake of fire
I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.