This was a major point in your other comment that I forgot to address actually, my bad.
Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine."
This could be true. But then I would argue: The US has long used the "bastion of freedom" approach because they believe it works - they believe that if they meddle in everybody's affairs to keep them aligned with the US, that this will help world peace. Therefore Russia would have already known that the US would meddle in Ukraine. And Russia would have known that would cause them to start a war. Therefore, Russia would have known that the US was on track to start a war with them in a neighboring country and did nothing about it for nearly a decade (other than warning the US). Does this seem reasonable?
And I also argue against your original point: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war." I don't believe this is reasonable because even if they knew, they were wrong. The invasion didn't start until 8 years after the 2014 revolution. So when did the meddling occur? Before the revolution? After?
Let's assume that the meddling happened before 2014. Are the intelligence agencies stupid? Their meddling caused a large portion of Ukraine to be annexed with little resistance. Do you think the intelligence agencies would have been happy with that outcome?
Let's assume that the meddling happened after 2014. Why would the intelligence agencies cause another war when the previous one was so easily lost?
I guess the big question is: Why would the US want war so bad? Why would they blindly turn Ukraine against Russia KNOWING that a war was coming that could turn Ukraine against the US (if it was annexed)?
> Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine."
No. I am saying that I believe US/NATO by proxy intentionally provoked war with Russia.
No should haves or shouldn't haves on either side. Not interested in subjective moral debates.
You know what? I think it is reasonable to believe that. I think it is reasonable to believe the expansion of NATO "provoked" war with Russia. That article is from 2022 but Putin was saying this all the way back in 2014: http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/20603
> On the contrary, they have lied to us many times, made decisions behind our backs, placed us before an accomplished fact. This happened with NATO’s expansion to the East, as well as the deployment of military infrastructure at our borders. They kept telling us the same thing: “Well, this does not concern you.” That’s easy to say.
So I can believe that Putin thought he needed to invade Ukraine due to NATO's expansionism. I do not understand how he could be so stupid :(.
Interesting link. He is very convincing and persuasive in his speeches. Whatever you may believe about Putin, he is certainly not stupid. Not even his worst enemies would honestly think he is stupid. He has an extremely sharp mind and is a cunning adversary, and so is his opposition in the west.
"Russia found itself in a position it could not retreat from. If you compress the spring all the way to its limit, it will snap back hard. You must always remember this."
>"Russia found itself in a position it could not retreat from. If you compress the spring all the way to its limit, it will snap back hard. You must always remember this."
And explain why Ukraine a country that was their "brothers" felt attracted by EU and Western values? I hope the explanation does not involve Satan or CIA mind control.
Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine."
This could be true. But then I would argue: The US has long used the "bastion of freedom" approach because they believe it works - they believe that if they meddle in everybody's affairs to keep them aligned with the US, that this will help world peace. Therefore Russia would have already known that the US would meddle in Ukraine. And Russia would have known that would cause them to start a war. Therefore, Russia would have known that the US was on track to start a war with them in a neighboring country and did nothing about it for nearly a decade (other than warning the US). Does this seem reasonable?
And I also argue against your original point: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war." I don't believe this is reasonable because even if they knew, they were wrong. The invasion didn't start until 8 years after the 2014 revolution. So when did the meddling occur? Before the revolution? After?
Let's assume that the meddling happened before 2014. Are the intelligence agencies stupid? Their meddling caused a large portion of Ukraine to be annexed with little resistance. Do you think the intelligence agencies would have been happy with that outcome?
Let's assume that the meddling happened after 2014. Why would the intelligence agencies cause another war when the previous one was so easily lost?
I guess the big question is: Why would the US want war so bad? Why would they blindly turn Ukraine against Russia KNOWING that a war was coming that could turn Ukraine against the US (if it was annexed)?