Are you comparing the best public schools to the best homeschools? Or the worst to the worst? Or the average to the average?
I suspect that the education kids get at the worst 20% of public schools in the country is still way better than the worst 20% of homeschoolers.
I also would totally believe that the education kids get at the top 20% of homeschools is better than the average public school.
Public schools are far from perfect, but there are minimum standards and there are resources at the state and federal level to try to improve schools that aren't meeting those standards.
My problem with homeschools is that in most states, there aren't any standards being enforced. If homeschools had surprise inspections and biannual state-run testing, I'd be fine with it.
Yesterday, there was a teach complaining that they weren't allowed to flunk students who did not show up for class. For middle school. They weren't allowed to flunk students who scored 0% on tests, because they would sit at the back of class and play on smartphones the entire time, or disruptively talk to other students.
When they would demand from administration some kind of answer, they'd be told they weren't doing enough to engage the students.
You claim there are minimum standards, and technically that's true... any of us could look those standards up on the internet in only a moment, those standards are ignored for some incredibly large fraction of public schools.
> If homeschools had surprise inspections and biannual state-run testing, I'd be fine with it.
The great thing is, I don't have to put up with you being fine with how my wife and I teach our children. We don't have to answer to you.
I'm not just a contrarian here. You are fine with what the public schools are doing, right now. Your oversight, such as it is, doesn't seem to be effective at doing any of the things that I could want. It does lead me to be suspicious about what it is that you want.
The reason why many homeschoolers opt out of public schools is because of those minimum standards. Who wants their children to be taught to a minimal standard? My autistic son would still be completely non-verbal (and probably worse) if we put him into the local public school system. We saw the classroom he would have been in, it was horrific. Instead, he has a speech language pathologist working with him one-on-one three to four hours per day.
Comparing homeschools to the worst public schools is a false comparison in the United States, as school quality equates to wealth, and poor people by and large don’t homeschool.
Most of this stuff is driven by religion and politics.
> Most of this stuff is driven by religion and politics.
As so is the backlash. I get the impression that the emotional foundation to many of the objections to homeschooling is the idea that some kids will get a (home-schooled) education that doesn't conform to the commenter's politics or values. School has long been a mechanism for a dominant group to impose its politics and values on other people's kids. Public schools are just a milder form of that than Indian residential boarding schools or Chinese boarding preschools (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/15/opinion/china-tibet-board...), but they still perform the same function.
Homeschooling provides an escape from those functions (and other problems), and that's one I'd certainly want available to myself. I can imagine how nightmarish it'd be to be forced to send my kids to one of those Chinese boarding schools.
Deficits of empathy like those that would deny that escape (and the attendant hypocrisy) are getting really grating to me, even in people I more or less agree with.
The problem is, we’re not talking about Chinese boarding schools, but we are typically talking about moving children to poorly structured and poorly resourced homeschool arrangements with poorly qualified parents or others.
IMO, private religious schools with appropriate regulation (ie not some indoctrination academy) are a great thing, and I think supporting families in some way to avail themselves of them is a good compromise.
As I stated elsewhere here, my kids went to catholic schools and did great. I’m not approaching this as a “thou shalt public school” perspective. I also coached baseball to age 15, and I can tell you that kids benefit from someone who isn’t mom or dad instructing them.
> we are typically talking about moving children to poorly structured and poorly resourced homeschool arrangements with poorly qualified parents or others.
Is that "typical"?
It's a leap to assume that it's "typical" that homeschooling parents incompetent and incapable of educating their children. If anything, I'd assume the extra attention and emotional investment that's possible could make up for a lack of a educational credentials.
It's also a leap that the public schools would do better. It's also a common theme here that a motivation for homeschooling lack of academic rigor or outright failure of the public schools. I could see homeschooling as the only realistic option for a parent who lives in a failing school district (which are depressingly common) but is not wealthy enough to afford private school tuition (and has no access to vouchers).
And I'm not really biased here: I send my kids to public school.
The things that make home schooling viable about (a) parental educational attainment, (b) parental time, and (c) parental wealth.
These don't need to be exceptional, but they do probably need to be above-average to do a decent job, and obviously time and wealth are entangled (no time if have to work two jobs).
The homeschooling crowd is so far up their own butts that they cannot accept homeschooling has horrific and hidden outcomes.
It's kind of the democracy versus authoritarianism debate. Authoritarians typically look really good on paper because they can conceal their mistakes, while the democracy bears all to the populace. And yea, there are some benevolent dictatorships with great outcomes, but I don't think that a single one of the homeschoolers would think that would be a valid point because it's also the exception.
I think you're already receiving the general opinion in the form of downvotes, but for the sake of constructive debate I'll try to respond.
> homeschooling has horrific and hidden outcomes
Please tell me more, as a homeschooled and successful software engineer and family guy I'm interested. Several people in my family are or have been homeschooled. I could tell you where they're at right now but I've bragged enough with myself already.
Yes, there can be horrific and hidden outcomes with homeschooling. Also with public education. Also with woodworking. Or having kids. Or cooking.
It's about how you do something, and why you do it.
Sorry for being so condescending, but your statements are offensive in their absurdity.
The root issue is that the homeschooling community, in their general distrust and suspicion of government authority has pushed hard for zero oversight and regulation (mostly through the HSLDA).
In most states, they've been able to achieve that.
And as potentially valid of a goal as avoiding oversight by someone you don't trust might be, it has willingly created a void.
A void that the homeschooling community itself doesn't police.
Consequently, when you do have the worst of the worst home outcomes... there's no one to turn to. And HSLDA even has specific playbooks to help parents avoid CPS intervention.
These cases are then buried to the extent possible (lobbying, media removal requests) because their very existence threatens the overall goal.
What are a few broken eggs to make an omelette, though?
> What are a few broken eggs to make an omelette, though?
I hope my comments don't suggest that this is the perspective of my thinking.
However I think we should make an effort of separating extreme cases from the norm. It is unjust to judge homeschooling as a concept by these very unfortunate fringe cases, when there's heaps of proven success cases on the other side, furthermore taking into account that abuse also happens despite kids going to public or even private schools.
And also taking into account that the protection laws that are so mentioned here have also been often abused by the government against innocent and honest people and their families.
I suspect that the education kids get at the worst 20% of public schools in the country is still way better than the worst 20% of homeschoolers.
I also would totally believe that the education kids get at the top 20% of homeschools is better than the average public school.
Public schools are far from perfect, but there are minimum standards and there are resources at the state and federal level to try to improve schools that aren't meeting those standards.
My problem with homeschools is that in most states, there aren't any standards being enforced. If homeschools had surprise inspections and biannual state-run testing, I'd be fine with it.