>> I have had to run to a bomb shelter almost every day
First, I didn't know you were Israeli. I live in Canada, far from the conflict and although it has been going on for decades, this moment feels different. It feels we are witnessing collective punishment on a large scale (and it's only beginning) and no one is attempting to de-escalate or even consider the future and its ramifications.
Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.
In Canada and many western countries, the media is biased towards Israel and the double speak to hide the truth and remove context is off the charts.
When comparing the coverage with the Ukraine conflict, there is a silence similar to the Saudi's genocide in Yemen. You don't hear from Yemeni people, you don't see coverage from their perspective. It's the same thing now with people in Gaza. Compare this to Ukraine where we had the stories/experiences of individuals constantly relayed in the corporate media.
>> it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace
I completely disagree with that. Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general.
I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.
But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this. Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.
When I read about the lives of people in Gaza (before October 2023), I'm not surprised a movement of resistance like Hamas emerged. Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally. Israel shows little regard for Palestinian lives and they are treated more like a pest to be managed than the long distant cousins they are.
The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves.
Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.
Here are two videos that influenced me:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4CH-Jg6lY This was filmed before October 2023 and shows the reality of the blockade, the lives of people in Gaza and their resourcefulness despite the safety/economic constraints.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s This was filmed in 2019, mostly in the west bank (which is a whole other disaster) and convinced me about Israel's intent and its so called "good will". I watched it when I heard Abby Martin on the Joe Rogan podcast. I haven't watched since.
Feel free to educate me if you have good material / videos / projects / initiatives you'd like to share that would change my perspective and help put an end to this conflict.
My wish for you is to find security and peace, and I hope that it will not come at the expense of many lives.
Oh nice, I have lots of family and friends there, and I've been many times, what a wonderful country.
> Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.
Thank you. No one really deserves to live in any kind of war zone. For sure the people in Gaza have it far worse than we do here.
I will say, one thing that I think keeps getting "lost" by outsiders to conflict is just how different it is to live under threat of annhilation. That's something I think outsiders don't really understand, because they mostly think Israel is "all-powerful" in this conflict. And for sure Israel is more powerful. But people here vividly remember that we are surrounded by enemies that have attacked us many times, and that absolutely might be able to overwhelm us. It's happened before, and this current situation makes us all feel incredibly scared that a wider war will break out. Many Israelis I know have fled the country for fear of a wider conflict.
I'm not saying this excuses all behavior, but for sure, when talking with Westerners, it often feels like they just don't have a concept of a real war that could destroy their country. And that makes sense - most Canadians/USians are hundreds of years removed from that kind of worry.
> But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this.
I agree, of course it didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm not trying to say Israel is faultless, or that the Palestinians don't have very legitimate grievances.
> Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.
I just want to give you an Israeli's perspective on this. We absolutely hate the UN, and assume it is incredibly biased against Israel. Which makes sense, since it's not a democratic institution, it's far closer to a popularity contest, and there are more than 20 Arab countries, representing 200 million Arabs, as opposed to only one Israel representing 7 million Jews (or 15 million worldwide Jews).
As proof of this bias, per Wikipedia:
> Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined.
Now, say whatever you want about Israel, I don't think there's any legitimate way to make the claim that it deserves more condemnation than the rest of the world combined. Not even close.
> I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.
Just for the record, I am against that kind of talk. I understand where it comes from, and I think in some cases people are blurring between things said against Hamas vs. against all Palestinians, sometimes intentionally (on both sides). But I think it's wrong.
> Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally.
Israel withdrew from Gaza, after which they elected Hamas, with the avowed intent to destroy Israel. Israel then implemented a blockade to prevent them getting weapons.
Let's say Israel lifted that blockade and allowed free movement - do you think that Hamas wouldn't just arm themselves even more and commit even more violence? Even under the current situation, where aid and things are going through the blockade, you have videos that Hamas themsleves put up of them digging up water pipes meant for the populace, and turning them into rockets.
> Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general.
If we're talking in general, I think you can see goodwill by the fact that Israel has agreed to several peace deals that the Palestinians walked away from, the fact that Israel completely left Gaza, the fact that after every time Hamas started shooting rockets at Israel, it has agreed to a ceasefire despite being objectively much stronger than Hamas. As terrible as the rockets alway were, it's not like Israel couldn't have any of the dozen times this has happened decided to go in and do far more damage.
Also, I do ask that you judge Israel not by some ideal moral standard, but by the standard of how other countries have acted or would act in similar situations.
As for goodwill in the current situation, all I can say is, two weeks ago everyone was up in arms at Israel saying that it was giving Gazans 24 hours to evacuate, turning off the water and blocking food, etc. I said then, that Israel would not let Gazans starve, and would not create a mass casualty event. Israel still hasn't, and I continue to stick by this statement - while many Gazans will regrettably lose this lives (and I really do regret this), Israel is not going to indiscriminately kill Gazans, there will be no mass casualty event neither by bombing nor by mass starvation etc. While Israel has bombed a bit in the south, it is mostly not bombing there and mostly allowing Gazans to escape to the south.
I don't have proof of any of this, but all I can say is that I've been right so far and all past actions have shown that Israel is not trying to mass kill Gazans, despite always having had the ability to do so, and there's just no real way to think otherwise when looking at the actual numbers.
(And I will reiterate again - every civilian death is a tragedy. I even think it's a tragedy that any terrorists/militants have to be killed, because despite the civilian/combatant distinction, most of them are scared/angry teenagers too! I definitely think Israel has sometimes killed innocent it didn't have to, just like any other army in the world, but I don't think any of Israel's actions are consistent with it trying to create a genocide, period, and I've seen no reason to think otherwise except people saying "this time is different and Israel will cause a genocide".)
> The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves. Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.
I don't mean to sound callous, truly, but people live in bad conditions all over the world. Gazans are certainly not living in good circumstances, but there's many people around the world who live in far worse conditions. And it's worth reiterating - if they would agree to ceasing violence and compromising with Israel, we would have peace. They don't have to resort to violence any more than anyone else does - it's only because they refuse to accept Israel existing as it currently does, only because they refused and refuse to compromise, that they continue to be in this current situation.
(And once agian, I mostly blame their leaders for this, not the "average citizen", and also put a lot of blame on Israeli leaders, who have for years done nothing to encourage peace and done plenty to discourage peace.)
> Here are two videos that influenced me:
I don't have time to watch these right now (they're long), but will try to watch them soon. I'll try to think of good resources.
I wish for peace too. Unfortunately, it's a two sided thing, and one side really hasn't tried to achieve peace all these years. (And the Israeli side is somewhere between "giving up" and "actively try to discouarge peace", so it's not like our side is perfect.)
A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation. There may be retaliatory actions, yet it is evident that the United States is providing support, as demonstrated by the presence of two (or three) carriers ready for engagement. On the other hand, Gaza faces a significant threat of annihilation. I do agree with you that the likelihood of Canada experiencing war is low, with the primary concerns being terrorism within our borders or the possibility of a nuclear strike.
>> We absolutely hate the UN
And, also, the ICC (Internal Criminal Court) apparently. Along with a few countries like: United States , China , Russia , India , Indonesia , Israel , Sudan , North Korea , Syria.
The resolutions are often a response to actions taken by Israel that are perceived as violations of international law or hindrances to peace efforts. It is not a matter of bias against Israel, but rather an attempt to hold all nations accountable for their actions.
Although there are many Arab nations, the resolutions are passed based on the consensus or majority vote of the member states, which includes a wide range of nations with different perspectives and interests.
Dismissing the U.N as a biased organization isolates Israel on the international stage. Perhaps it doesn't matter given the emphasis on catering to the United States as the primary base of support and main audience.
>> Israel withdrew from Gaza
I believe statements like this is where you and I will strongly disagree.
When I see snipers shooting children who are fenced up, shooting medical personnel, shooting journalists, all deliberate, done with intent by IDF snipers; I don't call that withdrawing from Gaza.
This is the video I'm talking about: https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=2673 explaining the practice of picking targets and killing them. Explained by General Zvika Fogel
This explains how food is restricted or as Israel puts it: "Putting Gaza on a diet" (2006) - Dov Weisglass, an adviser to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=464 by only allowing 4 hours of electricity per day (cannot store food) and watching the caloric intake requirements to avoid malnutrition.
This was all filmed in Gaza around 2018/2019.
You are welcome to watch the rest if you find the time; I hope those short segments change your perspective.
We have many problems with indegenous tribes in Canada (long history) but they are not fenced up, blockaded, shot at and bombed.
This is what Israel snipers remind me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0DqnUk90lo and why Israel is condemned internationally.
While I may not fully endorse Hamas, I hesitate to label it as a terrorist organization without further examination. Instances of violence, as depicted in the video mentioned and recognized by numerous U.N resolutions, involving IDF soldiers and the actions of "settlers" in the West Bank, are acts of terrorism.
When you watch those video segments, do you still believe Israel is a nation interested in peace? Because all I see is a nation interested in the degradation, humiliation and brutalization of people.
Israel certainly doesn't get to act outraged when Palestinians resist and fight back against that type of oppression and occupation.
A few definitions so words still have meaning because they easily get distorted in this conflict:
```
A terrorist is an individual who engages in acts of violence, typically targeting civilians or non-combatants, with the intention of instilling fear, spreading terror, and advancing a particular political, ideological, or religious agenda. These acts are usually carried out as a form of asymmetric warfare, where the perpetrators lack the conventional military power to engage in direct conflicts.
A terrorist state, also known as a state sponsor of terrorism, refers to a nation that provides financial, logistical, or ideological support to terrorist organizations. Such states may offer safe havens, training facilities, weapons, funding, or even intelligence to terrorist groups, enabling them to carry out their activities. This support can be motivated by various political, ideological, or strategic interests.
```
Since no international governmental body can, I genuinely hope Israeli individuals can hold their government accountable through democracy and better access to information/education.
Again, I'm 100% open to new material if you want to share your perspective and change minds.
> A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation.
I mean, I think it's unlikely Israel will be completely annihilated, but a larger conflict in which we are attacked from several different countries can be devastating. And it's definitely a real possibility that Israel could be conquered.
> It is not a matter of bias against Israel, but rather an attempt to hold all nations accountable for their actions.
Well, do you think the fact that there are more resolutions against Israel than against all other countries combined is reflective of Israel being worse than all other countries combined? If not, how do you explain it?
> Although there are many Arab nations, the resolutions are passed based on the consensus or majority vote of the member states, which includes a wide range of nations with different perspectives and interests.
There are many Arab nations. There are also a huge number of Arabs and Muslims, many of whom are ideologically opposed to Israel. Many of them live in various countries, including many countries in Europe. Just look at the vast anti-Israel protests that are happening across many countries.
This gives a lot of political pressure to many countries to oppose Israel in various ways. Voting against Israel in the UN is a cheap way to appease large blocs of voters.
I'm not saying this necessarily means the UN is biased against Israel, but for sure take that together with the fact that a majority of resolutions are against Israel, and it paints a picture in my mind. (Remember, big as the conflict with Palestine is, the number of dead is tiny compared to any other conflict, including some happening as we speak).
Btw, here's one example of why Israelis dislike the UN so much - it is fairly common knowledge that Palestinian children, taught in UN-run schools, get material which teaches them to hate Jews/Israel.
Here's one video on the subject I randomly found on YouTube, there are lots of others but I tried to find one that isn't from an Israeli channel (just in case you don't trust it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkOPVXiTqoI
> >> Israel withdrew from Gaza
> I believe statements like this is where you and I will strongly disagree.
> When I see snipers shooting children who are fenced up, shooting medical personnel, shooting journalists, all deliberate, done with intent by IDF snipers; I don't call that withdrawing from Gaza.
To be clear, by withdrawing from Gaza, I mean that Israel literally removed 7k of its own citizens, that were settlers in Gaza, removed them and forced them back into Israel. The existence of these settlers were one (very valid) complain the Palestinians and the international community had against Israel.
So Israel forcefully removed these settlers, withdrew all soldiers from Gaza, and said that Gaza can govern itself. Gazans then elected Hamas (or Hamas took over, not sure what's the correct way to put it), which caused Israel and Egypt to blockade Gaza fully in order to keep weapons out of their hands.
While I certainly condemn killing anyone unarmed and for no reason, this video doesn't give much context on what's happening. I don't believe there's large-scale targeting of medical personnel and journalists. But the border is the border, and soldiers do defend it.
As far as I can tell about that specific clip of a sniper, while it's a pretty horrible video, there does appear to be important context. For one, that person wasn't killed (which is unclear from the video). For another, it appears he was trying to plant a bomb on the border. (I don't know for sure that's true - I just tried to search for a bit of context online about it and that's what I found.)
But it's just not true that there is a large scale IDF campaign of shooting random civilians. Yes, the IDF gets things wrong, and yes, they do zealously protect the border. But that's a very different thing than what you're alleging, and despite the fairly horrible video, it's not evidence of what you claim. I can find thousands of videos of US soldiers doing horrible things, that doesn't mean the US is using its army to commit terrorism and war crimes.
> While I may not fully endorse Hamas, I hesitate to label it as a terrorist organization without further examination.
Ok let me disagree with you strongly here. In what sense is Hamas not a terrorist organization?
On October 7th, Hamas entered into Israel and killed 1400 people, and took 200 people hostages. Most of those were civilians. They raped and tortured people, did absolutely horrendous deeds. In what way does this not fit your definition of a terrorist organization?
Have you seen some of the stuff they did on October 7th? It is absolutely horrible, the worst crimes imaginable. If you have not, I urge you to look into it if you want to actually understand what Israelis feel they are up against. (Though don't watch if you don't want these kinds of horrible images burned into your brain forever).
Btw, if we're already talking about international recognition, Hamas is designated as a terrorist group by the US, UK and Canada. (And iirc, not by the UN, which again leaves many Israelis questioning the UN.)
Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot with explosive bullets https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=3152 as "defending the border"; there is no talking while remaining diplomatic here.
Force is the only thing you will respect and is why Hamas exists. Until Israel starts treating others with a semblance of humanity, there will never be peace.
If you visit Canada, feel free to say hi. Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes. Only a few weeks vacation to commit atrocities and he will be back. Of course, no one will call him a terrorist or war criminal or hold him accountable; hell, he even gets called "Canadian" despite not hesitating to obey the orders of a foreign government.
> Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot
Ummm, I didn't accuse any dead children of planting bombs. And what I deny is that there is large-scale planned killing of journalists, I certainly don't deny that it ever happened.
> Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes.
You, on the other hand, flat out say that someone flying to Israel to defend their country is literally going to commit war crimes. Unless you know something more specific about what your neighbor is going to do, that's a pretty serious accusation to make.
So, just to know - is there anything at all that Israel could do right now that wouldn't be considered a war crime? Or do you honestly believe that the only moral move Israel can make at this point is to lay down our guns and, what, hope for the best?
I honestly believe when Israel can mount a siege of Gaza in less than a few hours, have the city completely surrounded and cut off food, electricity, water, fuel, communications and bombard at will; it's not a war. It's a massacre as you have overwhelming force and sustain no military losses (since the siege began).
I'm sorry zionists thought that they could steal people's land, force them out of their homes, kill the ones who resist, put the rest behind a fence, treat them for generations with no humanity and act surprised when the oppressed hop the fence, return to their homes and still have the house keys to massacre the intruders and thiefs occupying their property.
Unlike Israel, Hamas doesn't have a fancy prison system to lock up Israeli children and show them what "humane treatment" really means.
But hey, I apologize if I can't continue this back-and-forth banter with you. I highly doubt I can change your mind, just as you won't be changing mine. The footage I'm seeing only confirms my belief that there's a slow and deliberate genocide happening. No amount of fancy rhetoric can justify bombing hospitals just to close a tunnel or destroy a weapons depot, or whatever excuse they come up with. It's as simple as that.
This level of carnage and punishment inflicted on an entire population is absolutely unjustified. Sadly, I have no power to stop it, but I won't let Israel get away with washing off all the blood with empty words of forgiveness and forgetfulness. This will forever stain your civilization, just like Germany has been marked by the Nazi regime. And unlike the Germans, you will never learn or grow from this. Instead, you'll keep playing the victim card.
First, I didn't know you were Israeli. I live in Canada, far from the conflict and although it has been going on for decades, this moment feels different. It feels we are witnessing collective punishment on a large scale (and it's only beginning) and no one is attempting to de-escalate or even consider the future and its ramifications.
Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.
In Canada and many western countries, the media is biased towards Israel and the double speak to hide the truth and remove context is off the charts. When comparing the coverage with the Ukraine conflict, there is a silence similar to the Saudi's genocide in Yemen. You don't hear from Yemeni people, you don't see coverage from their perspective. It's the same thing now with people in Gaza. Compare this to Ukraine where we had the stories/experiences of individuals constantly relayed in the corporate media.
>> it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace
I completely disagree with that. Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general. I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.
But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this. Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.
When I read about the lives of people in Gaza (before October 2023), I'm not surprised a movement of resistance like Hamas emerged. Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally. Israel shows little regard for Palestinian lives and they are treated more like a pest to be managed than the long distant cousins they are.
The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves. Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.
Here are two videos that influenced me:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4CH-Jg6lY This was filmed before October 2023 and shows the reality of the blockade, the lives of people in Gaza and their resourcefulness despite the safety/economic constraints.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s This was filmed in 2019, mostly in the west bank (which is a whole other disaster) and convinced me about Israel's intent and its so called "good will". I watched it when I heard Abby Martin on the Joe Rogan podcast. I haven't watched since.
Feel free to educate me if you have good material / videos / projects / initiatives you'd like to share that would change my perspective and help put an end to this conflict.
My wish for you is to find security and peace, and I hope that it will not come at the expense of many lives.