> Ook de officiële VanMoof-app, waarmee eigenaren hun fiets van het slot kunnen halen, is niet voor alle klanten bereikbaar.¹
(The official VanMoof app, which bicycle owners use to unlock their bicycle, is not available to all customers either.)
Yet another reminder that you'll never actually own something which depends on an app or the company behind it existing. For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum.
Like all self-mobile equipment, it should be self-contained, air gapped from the internet and not require a web connection to work.
Doing that, even OTA updates become unnecessary. Goesbfor cars, and even more so for bicycles, e- or otherwise... What's next, connect with Googpe / Facebook to use the bathroom?
Good ridance for VanMoof, if everything you have is hippster marketing, that's what will ultimately happen.
We need more local IoT networks in general. There should never be a case for vast majority of devices to contact the internet. Just MQTT to local gateway and do logic there. And maybe some generalized service for keeping firmware updates.
I'll go even further: we do need a lot less IoT stuff, a lot as in none at all if possible. And if something isn't connected to the internet, and working just fine within spec, you don't even need to update the firmware.
Proliferation of "smart" is definitely also a problem, but I think bigger one is plain lack of standards for most common use cases so if any of the platforms is abandoned, tough luck, landfill.
> And if something isn't connected to the internet, and working just fine within spec, you don't even need to update the firmware.
Yes but you always want to have option open, bugs happen
> In Amsterdam staan boze klanten voor de deur omdat ze hun fiets niet kunnen ophalen die ze voor reparatie naar VanMoof hadden gebracht.
(Angry customers can't pick up the bikes that they'd brought in for repair.)
This is particularly nasty. Not only do they lose access to repairs and other services (like unlocking), some people have already lost their entire bike. If the company isn't already bankrupt, it'd be nice if they could at least finish the repairs that are in progress, and return all the bikes to the customers (I hesitate to call them "owners").
Of course that's a problem that can occur with any bankrupt repair service. The designed lock-in making customers dependent on a bankruptable company for everything from repairs to unlocking their bike, is more unique to this business model, but it should be a big warning against these lock-in driven business models that make customers too dependent on a single company.
It's of course tempting to trust and believe that companies never go bankrupt, but they do.
That's just because the physical shop closed in the course of the bankruptcy proceedings, not because the bicycles were repossessed. If VanMoof does go tits-up, these bicycles will still belong to their owners. It sucks not to be able to get at them right now, but that will sort itself out.
The court assigns an administrator who, if effective, will work with what there is.. The bikes many people get back may be worthless as many parts were apparently custom so there are no other shops to complete the unfinished repairs.
It's insane how common they are in Seattle. They look super sleek but their specs aren't actually all that good.
I ended up going with juiced instead for less than half the price because it's pretty much all easily maintainable parts you can source yourself if need be. Lectric is great for that too.
I also occasionally encounter one in Amsterdam (most Amsterdammers wouldn't want to be caught dead on a VanMoof), and I find them confusing and annoying. They make weird, confusing sounds, have some sort of whistle instead of a bell, and the riders seem to think they always have right of way and always go faster than other bikes. Or maybe I interpret their behaviour more aggressively than with other bikes because of the weird sounds they produce.
(I don't think they're actually more aggressive than other cyclists in Amsterdam. I mean, that's a very high bar. They might even be more polite. And yet, they seem to have acquired that reputation.)
I think that reputation is undeserved, ard there's a bit of resentment at play. They're seen as toys for the wealthy, as mMost Amsterdammers probably ride a 3rd or 4th hand beater bike worth less than €100. But it seems that the resentment is nowadays more a directed at fat-bikes (Rad Powerbike lookalikes).
Ah, but we're proud of our ratty 4th hand beater bikes. People do some creative stuff with them sometimes, and certainly when I was a student, you didn't want to be seen on some shiny new bike fresh from the shop.
> But it seems that the resentment is nowadays more a directed at fat-bikes (Rad Powerbike lookalikes).
Weirdly, I don't actually mind them that much. They're awful of course, but I don't see them as replacements for bikes, but as replacements for scooters/mopeds. And those are a lot more awful. So I rather see people on a fat e-bike than on a dirty fume spewing scooter.
>For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum.
This is the perception many people have but they're actually a bit cheaper than the average ebike, starting at €2200 when you would expect to pay about €2500 for most ebikes.
Especially when at introduction of the S3 a few years ago. The only alternatives in the same price range as Van Moof were very ugly / no-brand e-bikes. The S2 predecessor came in at €3500, the S3 was introduced at €1900. It is/was by all means a cheap bike, with cheap parts, sold at a low price, but with a premium image.
However in the last few years a lot has changed, and in no small part thanks to Van Moof. There are now plenty of competitors on the market that are more affordable, use more standard and more easily replaceable parts and have higher build quality. The Van Moof S3 has only gone up in price, while no changes have been made to address it's flaws.
So when I bought my S3 bike in 2020 it was a reasonable choice, even though I was well aware of the quality issues. And though almost every part on my bike has been replaced at least once (at no cost to me), I have no regrets of my choice back then; there were practically no alternatives back then.
But my next bike will surely not be a Van Moof. The brand has served it's purpose, popularising e-bikes for non-pensioners. But they made a few costly design mistakes, and instead of backtracking they doubled down.
In my opinion the automatic electric shifter without a pedal-force sensor is the main flaw. You can't control the shift moment (I guess because manual shift buttons would interfere with the design). The hub gear is not designed for shifting under load, so sooner or later it will break as the auto shifter chooses just the wrong moment.
Also due to the lack of a pedal-force sensor, shifting is only based on speed. When going up a hill or with heavy head wind, I would prefer to ride in a lower gear. This requires opening up the app and change the shifting profile. No thank you!
TLDR: Either manually controlled shifting or a inclusion of pedal force sensor would have solved 90% procent of the issues with the bike. Refusing to acknowledge such a basic design mistake is a god reason to go bankrupt. So thanks for the effort, but this is the market working as it is supposed to do. Bye bye Van Moof, good riddance
> So when I bought my S3 bike in 2020 it was a reasonable choice, even though I was well aware of the quality issues. And though almost every part on my bike has been replaced at least once (at no cost to me)
Every part replaced over a 3 year period? I can see how they're going bankrupt.
To be exact:
- the battery
- rear hub (actually entire wheel)
- main logic board (might have been 2x)
- boost button
- automatic shifter
Most of these were in the first year and a half. I think the only commonly failing part that is still original is the kick-lock. Interestingly I have never heard complaints or had issues with the actual electric motor.
Prices have dropped quite considerably recently. You can now pick up an e-bike as cheaply as €500. Once you get out of the "budget" range I'd expect to be paying more like €1500 for an average one.
Where can i pick up these €500 ebikes? I've never seen one under €900 and that is with absolute garbage parts. Once you have some decent parts on there they are quickly 2000+.
All the reasonably good ebikes I've checked recently are now several hundred dollars more expensive than a year ago. You can watch a year-old review on Youtube which mentions prices, then go to the company's website to see how the prices have increased.
True story. I got their original model X, which they offered as a limited issue in Europe. Near the end of the 2 year warranty period the controller broke (no power assistance at all), and the shop told me it was irreparable since the part was not manufactured anymore. Initially they thought it was just outside the warranty period, and wouldn't offer me any recourse except a store voucher for a few hundred euro. After I looked up the docs to proof it was (just) still within the warranty the were forced to offer me a replacement bike X3 model. Which I promptly sold, and I've been happy with my regular non-ebike ever since.
> one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up
The frame, certainly - it has integrated lights and I presume other electronics. I wonder though (and doubt that) about the other components, which are easily sourced and likely off the shelf.
Designing a custom frame for a bicycle isn't uncommon or a bad idea. These bikes are also pretty common here in Europe and they do look good. They're popular, and recogniseable.
The promise being an all-in-one system you barely have to maintain. That isn't a bad or unfair proposition. So it's a shame the company seems to have been badly run.
A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company takes on loads of VC funding, scales up way beyond what is reasonable in expectation of future growth, then a single poor product launch leads to an acute cash crunch at the same time that renewed funding has dried up due to rising interest rates.
It's a very traditional failure mode for overly ambitious people: after having a string of successes in the good times, they forget that there can also be bad times and so they take incredible risks because they cannot imagine failure anymore.
App-integrated electrical bikes sounds like technology to me. They also have/had a good branding effort going, but so does apple. I don't see why having a brand would disqualify them from being a tech company.
Oh please. It has FSD? Otherwise maybe it can take a pulse reading through my butt?
They are competing with bike manufacturers, which call themselves bike manufacturers and these manufacturers have been producing decent e-bikes for decades now.
VanMoof is a fashion brand for hipsters. Always was.
I owned a VanMoof bike several years ago. A normal bike, not an E-bike, and there were no "smart features" in it, fortunately.
It was an OK bike. It looked great, I liked the integrated lights and the chain that hid in the frame was amazing (really practical if you lock your bike multiple times a day).
When switching to an E-bike, I decided to go with a Batavus Quip extra cargo e-go, and the main reason was that it looked like a fairly standard bike built from reasonably standard components. Which meant easier servicing. It also has a "bottle-type" bosch battery, which means I can pick it up and charge at the office. I don't know why e-bike manufacturers assume that I have an electrical outlet available right where I park my bike.
I looked at newer VanMoof models and they looked great, but I was increasingly worried about the "smart" features and becoming dependent on them — as it turns out, I was right.
Wow batavus is still around? I've ridden their mopeds from the late 70s, and their road bikes from the same period, but I'd assumed they were defunct now.
Took one out for a test spin in Tokyo a few months ago. Was a bit surprised about how big their retail presence is (a showroom between Omotesando and Harajuku… must be expensive).
Although it looked good, I was also surprised by how jerky the peddle assist was as well as the non-removable battery.
Expecting users to lug a big e-bike up into their tiny Japanese apartment to charge every day doesn’t sound great.
Both VanMoof and Cowboy offer very exciting hardware. I actually bought a cowboy bike a year ago and could reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing! Sadly it started "booting" on the second day and after some annoying support chatting back and forth ("please put the bike outside so it has mobile internet connection!") I returned it. Support chat partners changed multiple times per day for me, responses took a long time sometimes. Initial shipping times was also unacceptable and took months. They sold a lot more bikes than they had ready. Reddit forums are full of fed up people with buyers remorse. Generally, quality control is very lacking.
Being at the mercy of a remote company 5 countries over that has no serious presence in your city to maintain/fix/ship your 3000€ bike is simply a terrible idea.
I find it amazing that people are happy to ride with pretty much zero protection at speeds as fast as a small motorcycle would take you, where a proper helmet is mandatory and most sane people would be considering significant safety clothing, etc.
Many years ago (I've been a motorcyclist since I was 16), I saw the result of falling off without safety gear. Even at 30 the results of human-tarmac contact is pretty horrible. Even faster and it doesn't bear thinking about.
That app (Cowboy Unleashed it was I believe) has an instant hard reset button that should make it very difficult for police to prove anything. Yes, it felt incredibly dangerous to be on a relatively light ebike going, what was it, at least 40 kilometers (25 mph) per hour. It's probably good I didn't get a replacement and gave it back.
Slick looking ebikes. Had one on my wish list before realizing probably can't get service outside of official depots. Bullet dodged. Any dumb ebikes with comparable design out there that can be serviced at local bike shop and doesn't look like steampunking components together?
I believe all Canyon e-bikes are using broader industry parts (Bosch motors, common components like Shimano or Enviolo gears, etc.) without looking steampunked together.
The design is not as sleek as the VanMoof ones but I do like the ones I saw in person so far.
Yeah city ebike looked pretty aggressive. Vanmoof also has pretty clean internal hub / belt drive options. It's just a very sleek package that no one else seems to be replicating.
They send the service technician to you. Saw it first hand - the service person came in a van that had all the tools and replacement parts. Not sure if it is better cost wise for them than having a workshop. Also not sure how well it'll scale.
I've also seen local shops help with minor repair (like seat change), but I doubt they'll be able to help with something more extensive with the drivetrain or battery.
I never got a Vanmoof because the version I test rode (an older model from a couple of years ago) jerked/made a distinct noise when it'd switch gears. Also, don't have room to plug the whole bike somewhere. Detachable battery was a must have for me.
Currently browsing more established bike brands here like Batavus and Gazelle. They are not as sleek, but are trying. I wonder if Vanmoof might have poisoned the well for smaller startups in this space. I'd definitely be wary of giving this kind of money to a non-established brand.
I drive an ebike by a German Company called Reise and Muller (https://www.r-m.de/en-en/bikes/). For the electrics, it uses off the shelf parts from Bosch which means you can buy spares (batteries, motors, controller etc) online and install them yourself with relatively little fuss. The motor also has a bunch of unused power that you can unlock if you're ok with getting your hands dirty ;)
I participated in the fundraising campaign of Vanmoof a few years ago. They were the market leader with a strong brand and financials. Possibly I considered it as my safest and a no-brainer investment.
Over the past few years I kept hearing there are issues with the bikes but I imagined such issues will be obviously addressed. Instead, they started expanding internationally (I read in comments they even had a presence in Japan!) while angry customers dealt with issues at home.
Really disappointed and a big reminder to prioritise product quality over growth at all costs. Vanmoof's desire to prematurely dominate the market turned into a fatal loss for all parties involved.
In my totally uneducated opinion, it seems like they lost the "fake it till you make it" race then. It could've worked by prioritizing hooking as many customers in the rapidly expanding e-bike market by looks and price, then deliver later on fresh investor's money, a strategy not unheard of in HN circles. But it's unclear what exactly the problem is - too many returns and/or failed parts or contraction of the e-bike market, or cheaper competition.
Sad, I was really tempted to buy this but the thing that held me back was that they could only offer 250W power output which is the ~EU limit. Sadly, only non-legal products are appealing to a significant part of the market.
That's the problem, once you're targeting people that had some kind of license majority of them want something a bit more than a simple e-bike so the market is tiny. So there is plenty of scooters but not really much else
A scooter as in a moped? Should be legal in the entire EU and you can ride it on a A or AM license.
For a ebike that category is called a speed pedelec, legal in most EU countries (license requirements differ from no license to license AM).
Ah, I would think of an electronic scooter to be a standing style one, similar to the ones you can hire in most major cities. A moped scooter, is really not comparable to the solution of an ebike/escooter.
A pedelec is limited to 250W in most of the EU and UK, which goes back to my first point.
Does it need be, and is it even possible for it, to be registered? I understood 2002/24/EC limited it to 250W for it to be legal unregistered pedelec, but member states didn't seem to provide a way of it being registered, as they didn't have the correct vehicle classifications for them, which means there was no legal way to use an ebike above 250W. I'd love to be wrong!
And usually without a helmet - in NL it's not obligatory to wear a helmet on a standard or basic electric bicycle.
There is a lot of disscussion about this safety issue but I'm not aware of any plans to improve the situation
Manufacturing them in the Netherlands (at least that's what the photo in the article tells me) was probably a mistake long-term, I can't see a bike-making company staying afloat while paying Western-level salaries.
(The official VanMoof app, which bicycle owners use to unlock their bicycle, is not available to all customers either.)
Yet another reminder that you'll never actually own something which depends on an app or the company behind it existing. For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum.
1: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/07/12/uitstel-van-betaling-vo...