Most of the content is also modded by a small subset of mods—literally dozens. You've got maybe a hundred mods who are "power mods" that control the vast majority of large subreddits, and these are the ones "protesting". They don't own the subreddits. They have no rights to them, but they like to pretend that they do. Their moderation has, in many ways, become oppressive to the userbase. You don't hear about it because—surprise—they ban those people.
Honestly, the mod structure on reddit needs to change. This protest will almost 100% backfire. If it actually impacts revenue the admins will just ban a few dozen mods and the protest will, effectively, be over. Users will probably be better off for it too.
The oppressive moderation that happens on reddit is not necessary. The very nature of the site is self moderating. Let people post what they want and vote on it.
1. First, look at the incentive structure for being a mod of a large subreddit: it's a ton of work, with people constantly bitching at you, for no compensation. The vast majority of people with a life are not going to want to do this. So of course it appeals to people who can power trip off it, and I can't see those dynamics really changing. I do think that reddit should change the rules to make it easier for particularly egregious mods to be voted out by the subscribers of a sub, but that's a relatively small change. For example, some of the r/lgbt mods were notorious assholes, which is why some people split off to make r/ainbow. Should be easier for subscribers to essentially "impeach" shitty mods.
2. "If it actually impacts revenue the admins will just ban a few dozen mods and the protest will, effectively, be over" People keep saying this, but I doubt it. The vast majority of reddit users, at least in the subs I've seen, support this - a bunch of the subs even had polls to ask what they should do. It's one thing for the admins to remove mods who are acting against the wishes of most is a subs' subscribers, but I think it would be total chaos if they tried to replace mods specifically to get their way WRT to the API changes.
At the end of the day, reddit is nothing without it's community. Company management can only go so far before it kills the goose that laid the golden egg.
> it's a ton of work, with people constantly bitching at you, for no compensation.
One of my favorite things about Mod self pity that always seems to come up is this insinuation that they did not want the job. The literal opposite of reality. All mods BEG to be mods. They lobby and work hard to get into their jobs and jealously guard them. They deeply resent and fear the idea of the community operating without them.
There have been times where I've thought, I have enough free time to be a help to a community I'm part of and would be willing to mod. But I've never done it because I wouldn't even know where to start. I'm not building a job application and selling myself for this or carefully waiting out position openings in Discord/IRC channels. I don't care that much. Use my labor if you want it or not. The mods that actually ended up mods? Oh they care and worked for it. You're free to quite any time if you don't want the job. Go on.... do it.
Also I question how much work there really is beyond mission creep. Filter out the spam and the occasional super psycho and you're done. Now if you make work for yourself by trying to be a gestapo nanny that deep reads all comments to weed out wrongthink and confers with mod star chambers on what is to be done to shape the community. Then yeah, maybe you can make a lot more work for yourself.
Thank you for coining the term "mod pity". It makes me think about roles where people, myself included, have sought the pity of others as a shield against criticism.
The power trip is enough for most people. And for the right subs, brands approach you with outrageous offers. It can EASILY make you six figures *a month. When I read, it was much smaller. Years ago when reddit it was much smaller and I was working for an agency. We paid $60,000 just for 2-3 months of “posting support”. It amounted to something like 12 posts. I know first hand how much some mods get compensated. And this wasn’t even a major subreddit.
Yes. That’s basically all we paid for. We also asked for some help coming up with ideas for posts which ended up being like a 10 slide presentation. Mostly around wording, popular memes on the sub and a few ideas about what would feel “organic”.
We also hired a well known Reddit power user to actually post the content. Which is also common. Those people get paid very little by comparison though. Like $50-100 a post. But they post a lot and have a lot of alts.
When you see a post that’s, “My girlfriend just got me this,” and there is a product in the person’s hand and the label is perfectly centered and in focus… there is no girlfriend. Someone paid for that.
I am always amazed how dumb smart people are in the comments of paid posts debating if things are real. Everything on social media is fake. Everything. When someone posts a photo of a new juice they found they didn’t find anything. It’s a paid ad. Same for damn near everything.
>First, look at the incentive structure for being a mod of a large subreddit: it's a ton of work, with people constantly bitching at you, for no compensation.
And they'll find new people to do it for no compensation, just as they did before the mod tools in question existed.
>The vast majority of reddit users, at least in the subs I've seen, support this - a bunch of the subs even had polls to ask what they should do.
The support is vast but shallow, and this will become clear quickly when extended blackouts cause admin interventions and no one cares except for a vocal minority that will then attack the site in other ways (spam.)
Well said! I saw a chart on r/dataisbeautiful a few years ago showing that a small percentage of Reddit users ever comment or post. Most people just read content. I topped the front page a couple of times and I used to moderate a default sub. It's a huge amount of work. You don't need to lose many power users to change the feel of Reddit forever.
With that said, maybe Reddit management wants the site to change. In the future, this could be seen as a shortsighted failure or as an MTV-stops-showing-music-videos pivot to a different audience.
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. I'm active in some video game subreddits and I even mod a video game related sub with about 25k subscribers. And on multiple occasions I've had terrible interactions with those big multi-sub moderators. A particularly infamous multi-sub mod (whom you can probably figure out) has threatened me for my subreddit on multiple occasions, making statements like "I'll have you blacklisted from modding other subs". That same exact mod on multiple occasions has deleted my posts from subs he mods, just to reupload them for karma himself. I don't even care about the karma, I just wish mods wouldn't delete my posts that don't break any rules in any way, shape, or form, especially when it's for blatant karma farming.
If you look around Google you can even find several posts of subreddits getting "liberated" of this particular multi sub mod... Something needs to change so this stops happening
This problem became much worse when Covid-19 came around too. Still to this day, there is a mod that will auto ban you from like 30 different subs including /r/pics and others if you so much as make a comment in a sub that they consider "covid minimizing" at all. How on earth reddit continues to allow such actions like that are beyond me.
I have this theory that religion is part of the human psyche, and that in 2023 we have more people that belong to a specific but as of yet unnamed religion than any point in history.
It just doesn’t have a bible, it’s a screen. Requires conformity, but doesn’t have a dress code. There is ceremony seen in emojis. And the priests are people you know are lying but it’s the other guys that are always “the problem”. You are a good person only if you do what you are told.
I agree. But the word 'religion' doesn't fit anymore. It is believe system and the need to be part of a group that one can identify with. Compliance with the set of rules that this group subscribes to gives one an feeling of belonging and identity. The German author Juli Zeh talks about this. We are social animals and with the collapse of basically all societal institutions - not just religion, but also political organizations - we are desperately trying to figure out how we are and how we have to be.
Reddit was behind those actions, dude. It's not about mods. That's tech companies controlling narratives and, specially in the case of covid, happened well beyond Reddit.
Instagram, to name one, was using these "media mods" to basically ban or tag news that they claimed were misinformation. Those media outlets were absolutely pro government in every country and any criticism of covid gov policies was "misinformation".
Don't let the fact that reddit mods can be assholes distract from anti user policies made by reddit pre Ipo
Agreed, although in this case it was a mix of Reddit itself and individual mods. The mods in /r/coronavirus for example got media attention and it was clear that it went right to their heads. They stopped making the mod log public, transparency went out the window, and AutoModerator basically went nuts.
It was so obvious that they wanted to portray a specific narrative and silent any dissent. Absolutely disgusting behavior.
This stuff happens on the mental health subreddits too. Its bad enough to always second guess your own diagnosis but its worse when a mod decides you are excluded from one of the few places that will tentatively accept you.
I have a direct family member that was very ill, thought maybe they were transgender, tried that out, their mental state was not improving, got professional help from a doctor that listened instead of supporting every thought, got a lot better, and spent this year de-transitioning.
I talked a little about their experience and, instantly banned from a handful of Reddit including a ban on my account that I appealed.
Yeah, mental health is so stigmatised that there is little room for the grey, like in your example. A few radicals end up controlling the discussion and most of us, who are too busy with life, are left confused and locked out by the hysteria. I am more sympathetic to those who support trans rights but go too far because the other side is literally calling for their extermination, but the lack of reasonable voices leaves eveyone poorer and disenfranchised.
> the other side is literally calling for their extermination
If literally… citations please.
I ask because I was accused of “supporting genocide” or some such nonsense.
I have not seen anyone literally calling for murder. The point of my post is that I have seen, first hand, people saying it’s rampant out there though. And since I was accused of exactly that, I’d like to see just how real this threat is.
I guess it is very marginal rhetoric. People like De Santis are not actively saying it, although their actions indicate a great deal of opposition. For what it’s worth, I dont think its fair or right that you were blocked for your example. But I think it is the siege mentality of the marginalised trans community that explains why you got blocked.
> But I think it is the siege mentality of the marginalised trans community that explains why you got blocked.
100%. Trans people will talk about all kinds of possibilities and realities with nuance, patience, and insight when they feel safe with the people they're talking to and confident that the discussion is in good faith. But the 'issue' is so hot right now that those conditions are virtually never met in public online spaces.
This creates some serious bias problems in terms of what people get to see. If you're not close to any trans people IRL, most or all you get to hear from trans people will be colored by that 'siege mentality'.
I think it'll unfortunately be several years before that dynamic can change. It may take a generation.
Self-moderation doesn't work for any reasonably large community, if you don't want your community to be generic Facebook/Instagram quality posts. Community-based moderation inevitably makes any subreddit into "fun phots/videos" because people who browse largely don't care about where the post is, they might not even realize what subreddit it is in when up-voting.
Subreddits like askscience or askhistorians would be impossible without extremely strict moderation, for obvious reasons.
> The very nature of the site is self moderating. Let people post what they want and vote on it.
This only works (mostly) for legal content. Unfortunately a lot of illegal content would be highly popular and upvoted if not moderated. It also doesn't really work when a subset of users engage with the system in bad faith or leverage bots.
Paid moderation is expensive - even if offshored - and I'm surprised that Reddit is willing to risk having to take on increased moderation costs. There's no way the lost potential revenue from 3rd party app users is enough to make up for that.
I've never (_never_) seen a community get large and be able to moderate itself with just technology like upvotes/downvotes. Someone needs to say "You're violating our community standards; get out."
Large, in this case, means big enough that cliques form. That happens well before a thousand people.
If you've ever moderated a large subreddit before, you would know that it's not self-moderating. Garbage comments attract more garbage comments, and pretty soon your userbase is toxic as everyone else who's looking for a civil conversation leaves.
I do agree this is an issue that needs to be addressed but you are also posting this on a website that is heavily moderated and runs as smoothly as it does because of the efforts of dang and the other moderators so I can't agree that reddit should just be the wild west.
Except if you search in Reddit right now you'll find plenty of posts where mod asked the users if they should join the blackout (sometimes rather meekly) and userbases, almost always, said yes.
The fact that you can go on reddit right now and enjoy it without all the annoying power users is only more reason to start visiting in my books. Hell I might even finally download the app.
The reddit replacement I am scoping out eliminates mods and subreddit squatting. I don't see a need for mods as they exist in reddit really, just "janitors" like in 4chan, most likely paid. Moderation seems like it could be done purely on the basis of voting and a sitewide content policy.
Agree completely. Get rid of all the large-sub mods, replace them with paid moderators who are instructed to only remove spam and illegal content. Giant, giant improvement. The mods as they are just power trip on their own politics. Why else would they do it for no money?
Honestly, the mod structure on reddit needs to change. This protest will almost 100% backfire. If it actually impacts revenue the admins will just ban a few dozen mods and the protest will, effectively, be over. Users will probably be better off for it too.
The oppressive moderation that happens on reddit is not necessary. The very nature of the site is self moderating. Let people post what they want and vote on it.