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Its just pretentious BS used as a smokescreen for _gambling with your money_.

What has happened with FTX is a demonstration of the value of a block chain and the concept of user-controlled wallets versus banks. FTX did what banks do, which is to take a cut of transactions, and especially use customer funds to make bets (that eventually they could not cover, even with all of your funds).

Using centralized exchanges to speculate is a ridiculous perversion of the concepts in cryptocurrency.

The basic advances of cryptocurrency are:

1) digital signatures used in transactions rather than disclosing secrets such as credit card numbers

and

2) a public ledger that is cryptographically verified with chains of blocks

Decentralized exchanges are probably usually also often nonsense speculation, but if done right they can at least benefit from 2 which means you can see what they are doing and not be surprised at the last second about some secret "over-leveraging".



> FTX did what banks do, which is to take a cut of transactions, and especially use customer funds to make bets

Their terms of service didn't give them the right to do this, as I understand it.

> None of the Digital Assets in your Account are the property of, or shall or may be loaned to, FTX Trading;


This is why actually if people can understand what's happening and what cryptocurrency is, this is another incident that is a very good advertisement for cryptocurrency.

Because actually the idea is that instead of relying on some third party to follow some words on paper, you trust math and computer science. You don't need the third party at all for most things, just use you own cryptocurrency wallet.

For more complex things, we can use smart contracts, which are not based on trust but actual math. The program being on-chain literally makes it impossible for them to misappropriate funds (at least without the details being in public and reviewable beforehand).


Things that regularly go wrong in cryptocurrency go wrong in cryptocurrency and that is an argument for using cryptocurrency???

I couldn't make this up!

As for the "smart contracts", nobody who is familiar with programming bugs would want there not to be better checks and balances there. The depressing frequency of 8 figure hacks of the terms of said contracts is a concrete demonstration of this principle. Thanks, but no thanks in anything like its current state.

For most users, traditional finance is faster, cheaper, and safer in practice than crypto. Which is exactly why the main use cases for crypto are speculation, money laundering, and various illegal activities like paying ransoms for ransomware attacks.


I have written and effectively used many smart contracts, although not for speculation.

There is constant abuse of customer funds, as a matter of course, by banks. It generally is less public or visible though than public ledgers (blockchains).

Its the difference between trusting a company that is trying to profit just from holding your funds in ways that you cannot audit, versus trusting a math and computer programs that you can audit.

There have not been more abuses by cryptocurrency exchanges than banks overall. They are just more recent. But what I am saying is that these cryptocurrency exchange companies really don't have anything to do with cryptocurrency -- their business model is antithetical.


...may not be loaned to, FTX Trading. They could lend it to any other entity though, like Alameda. LOL


Hilariously, this is _precisely_ what "fractional reserve banking is".

https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm

The banks have a zero-percent reserve ratio allowing them to "loan out" (and have deposited in their own bank as new funds) 100% of the 'digital assets' in their account.


There is nothing inherently wrong with banks lending out your deposits. This system is how a majority of new businesses are funded and how the economy expands. There are a mountain of regulations that banks have to keep up with and the reason why FDIC insurance exists. Investors entering the crypto space willingly rejected these regulations and are now finding out their purpose the hard way.


It's similar to the situation with credit cards. There is a whole industry related to working around the problem of constantly disclosing the secrets, such as refunding stolen funds.

Likewise we have had to rely on banks to control digital money since we did not have a good alternative. And now there are many regulations and compliance officers etc. dedicated to preventing people from cheating, stealing, or irresponsibly using customer funds.

But at the core level the problem is that these the bank ledgers are secret, difficult to verify or connect together for tracing purposes. Cryptocurrency means using math and computer science to solve these types of problems in a holistic way.

Like everything else, people have abused this technology (such as using it to sell services that are antithetical to the core concept). But that doesn't mean they aren't important advances.


Yeah especially after 2008. I heard a joke from someone who works at a big bank that after 2008 there are 2 compliance people for every one banker. People in finance like to make fun of the "back office" but they seem to be main reason the bank stays solvent.


> There is nothing inherently wrong with banks lending out your deposits.

There wouldn't be anything inherently wrong with it 1) if they didn't do it by default 2) if banks informed their customers appropriately, including the risk in doing that (most people don't know what banks do with their funds) and especially 3) if it wouldn't be forced, i.e. if they would let customers choose to keep their funds segregated if they are not willing to take the inherent risk in lending and/or the bank mismanaging their funds (e.g. having the option to have both segregated and normal checking/savings accounts or whatever), so that customers would never be exposed to losing whatever amount they didn't want to (including anything above the FDIC insured amount).

But sure, allow customers to lend their money and expand the economy if they want to. With an appropriate reward for the risk, not a laughable 0% interest rate, which almost nobody would ever take willingly. In fact, the 0% interest rate, or anything below or close to the inflation rate, is a clue which indicates that what they're doing to their customers is wrong and that the customers aren't choosing to take that risk knowingly and voluntarily.

> There are a mountain of regulations that banks have to keep up with and the reason why FDIC insurance exists

You say that like it's a good thing. It's massively inefficient and both "a mountain of regulations" and FDIC insurance are inherently unfair (for several reasons) and have many unintended (negative) consequences.

And it doesn't even actually fix the problem, it just makes it less likely to occur (for starters, because there ends up being much less competition than there would be otherwise -- less banks, less bank failures) but when it occurs, it's an even bigger problem. Which means it also gives a false sense of security.


> digital signatures used in transactions rather than disclosing secrets such as credit card numbers

Credit cards also offer this. I can go to my CC's website and generate virtual cards which can be handed to vendors and individually managed, frozen, or deleted, all without exposing my actual card number.


You're still exposing your virtual card number which gives permission to charge money from your actual credit card. Normal credit cards can also be individually managed, frozen and deleted but that doesn't prevent unauthorized charges.


Deleting a virtual card is tremendously easier than revoking my primary credit card number and updating all the vendors that are using it. It's quite easy to use a virtual card once and then delete it immediately. Furthermore, I'm not worried about a virtual card being exposed to unauthorized charges, because (unlike in cryptocurrency-land) chargebacks exist.


> Deleting a virtual card is tremendously easier than revoking my primary credit card number and updating all the vendors that are using it. It's quite easy to use a virtual card once and then delete it immediately.

Still harder and not as secure as a digital signature.

> Furthermore, I'm not worried about a virtual card being exposed to unauthorized charges, because (unlike in cryptocurrency-land) chargebacks exist.

You're not guaranteed to perform a chargeback successfully. And both vendors and customers (like you) are paying for that "service".

Chargebacks are also one of the reasons for why there is large-scale credit card fraud. And it is also why vendors are incentivized to collect personal information from you (to detect fraud before chargeback happens, for which they are greatly penalized) and why they are also incentivized to refuse service to legitimate customers in many cases (due to flagging legitimate transactions as suspicious).

Worse, when they refuse service they cannot even tell you why (as that would help fraudsters).


> You're not guaranteed to perform a chargeback successfully.

Even in the worst case, because a credit card is an abstraction over my bank account, I have the option to refuse to pay and won't lose my shirt or otherwise become despondent. In the meantime, chargebacks are a feature of the system, not a bug. To wit, cryptocurrency advocates are the last people who should go around lecturing others about fraud. :P


> Even in the worst case, because a credit card is an abstraction over my bank account, I have the option to refuse to pay and won't lose my shirt or otherwise become despondent.

That may also have unintended consequences for victims of credit card insecurity.

> To wit, cryptocurrency advocates are the last people who should go around lecturing others about fraud. :P

Why not? Cryptocurrency advocates know a lot more about it than most people (for good and bad reasons).


In cryptocurrency land there is no such thing as an unauthorized charge because you don't ever give a third party access to information that can be used to charge funds, which you have to do constantly with credit cards.


Unless you do, right?

> Since token approval requests usually ask for unlimited access to your token balance, if there is a security vulnerability, all of the assets in your wallet could be exposed. Depending on how severe the security vulnerability is, disconnecting your wallet from a dapp may not be enough to fully protect your assets.

https://help.coinbase.com/en/wallet/security/dapp-permission...


Exactly.. of course we still have very significant problems to solve.

Such as the fact that most of these cryptocurrencies are totally impractical to use for actually buying things, leading to the need to use centralized exchanges for swapping to fiat.

And the fact that there are multitudes of competing cryptocurrencies. And that there is a fundamental lack of integration with government due to government actually needing to radically reform and advance to incorporate cryptocurrency.

But still, they are core advancements that society should take advantage of. Easier said than done.


FWIW, even when they request unlimited access, you can set whatever limit you want. In MetaMask, the defacto standard wallet, you simply just edit the field that appears in the request/confirmation dialog.


can be a useful feature (in some scenarios) that crypto is permissionless (unlike the bank that has to approve vendors, limits, nations, etc.)


Sure but that's a workaround for a fundamentally outdated system.


Where "outdated" and "workaround" here means that it integrates with existing payment processors and therefore works with 99% of the things that you want to buy. There's nothing unique about cryptocurrency solutions in this case that traditional credit cards cannot achieve, and any fancier solution just means that you can't actually use it anywhere.


> Its just pretentious BS used as a smokescreen for _gambling with your money_.

No, it's pretentious BS used to make more riskier, assymmetric gambles.




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