Yet they (Government, CDC and media) downplayed it blatantly. They certainly made people believe forcing it to young people (<40), especially teenagers and kids was ok. Risks were higher than benefit and it was obvious from the data.
I am solidly not an anti-vaxer (I have them in my family and engaging with them is a distressing experience), but please cut out this "trust the science" angle.
The risk of death from covid itself varies a lot and varied a lot particularly depending on how overwhelmed hospitals were. Covid is not ebola or smallpox, the risk evaluation is much more subtle.
It's more about weighing aggregated low-probability side effects and unknown long-term health effects against overwhelming hospitals, damage caused by long Covid, and continued stress for society in general under quarantines and lockdowns.
Whether the right decisions were made will only be clear in hindsight and after a lot of study. That or we all turn into zombies.
Thank you. We all need a little epistemic humility, and a little compassion for how others made decisions. That includes public officials who had to make risky decisions with poor information in a rapidly changing fact-environment.
When it became clear to me that:
(1) the virus would never be boxed in [we missed that boat]
(2) the vaccines mostly just prevented serious disease, but only marginally prevented its spread [I've had 3 doses, and gotten the virus twice
(3) the newest variants appeared to be less dangerous
I tended toward vaccination being personal choice (like with flu) rather than a mandate, something we'll just have to live with.
Meanwhile there are global outbreaks of polio. That's what pisses me off (having a relative who suffered the consequences of that disease long long after childhood).
> public officials who had to make risky decisions
I'm not giving them any compassion. State and local levels of health departments acted like dictators with lockdowns which harmed people and many school-age children. My neighbor sold their house and moved because the employer was enforcing the shot so they got fired. I literally got multiple postcards in the mail from health department telling me a shot was waiting for me.
There were not enough studies of efficacy and safety to do what they did based on hunches while not hammering a message of "get off carbs and sugar, lose weight, improve your health".
Polio cases are leading regular people to question much of the over-powered medical people. Maybe it is good people become skeptical.
>>>the vaccines mostly just prevented serious disease, but only marginally prevented its spread [I've had 3 doses, and gotten the virus twice
It's unfortunate for individuals, but vaccines are still helping prevent spread (my unvaxxed roommate has brought covid home twice and I've not gotten sick (or even tested positive the second time when I had tests) despite taking zero precautions.
I didn't say that it didn't reduce the probability of transmission ("marginally prevented its spread"). But it certainly didn't push the R value low enough to control its spread (and wouldn't have even if everyone were vaxxed). I was a no-covid-er for a long time; I really held out hope for eradication, quite a bit longer than most. But its not realistic anymore, at least with current vaccines. Meanwhile, it seems to be a lot less deadly now, possibly because it is more of an upper-respiratory illness than a lower one, which I guess also makes it more transmissible, and possibly because a lot of people already had acquired some kind of immunity (mild cases, vaccination, etc.).
Polio pisses you off, but you're agitating against vaccination for no good reason?
You might want to make some basic connections here, figure out what you are really for, and whether you're willing to do basic responsible intelligent things like vaccination in order to achieve them.
Tho, the very same groups that should have more "compassion for how they make decisions" in this thread shown pretty much zero compassion to anyone. It is also group that likes to frame compassion as weakness or studpidity.
This strikes me as intellectually lazy and self indulgent. "This is the same group who..." arguments are weak if only because you haven't established that all members of this group are members of that group. I'd wager there are a great many people who oppose vaccine mandates because they worry about the precedent, or they worry about the risks, but don't also hate compassion. I'd also challenge your assertion that we shouldn't feel compassion for people who don't believe in showing compassion but I know that's a bit more controversial. "Love thy enemies" is not so popular these days.
> "This is the same group who..." arguments are weak if only because you haven't established that all members of this group are members of that group.
I see these arguments all over comment threads and always think something similar to what you said is the obvious response, and I never see anyone say anything about it. That was refreshing to read.
Fair, re military. But at my government job as a programmer at a university I was "forced" to vaccinate as well (unless I wanted to change jobs). I didn't mind, personally. But the descriptor of "forced" is pretty accurate.
And not just jobs. Heck, I went to a concert and had to prove vaccination status.
I think that requiring vaccination was justified at the height of the pandemic. It is unfortunate that the vaccines were not more neutralizing/preventing. I've had three doses and got the virus twice. I ended up being okay; my unvaccinated brother-in-law very much not okay. Like most people do, I have relatives who either died or were severely disabled by covid.
People were arrested by the police in NYC because they dared to walk into an Applebees and order food without showing a smartphone QR code that demonstrated they had multiple vaccinations for a disease that is readily spread by vaccinated people. It wasn’t based on science and people trying to use science as a shield for their actions should have been held accountable.
You're allowed to complain in the military. There are extensive internal bureaucracies just to accommodate complaints. EO, SHARP/SAPR, IG, command climate surveys, congressional inquiries, open door policies (mandatory), sensing sessions, requesting mast... there is quite a lot of mechanism for complaint and due process in the military.
> there is quite a lot of mechanism for complaint and due process in the military.
Sure, and sometimes that due process ends at "do it". That's been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades, and hasn't historically been much of an issue for folks.
> The US military has approved religious exemptions to its Covid-19 vaccine mandate for 15 service members out of approximately 16,000 requests, according to the latest data from the services.
That wasn't the comment though. The comment was "That's [do it] been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades" I'm saying that there has been an exemption process for vaccinations.
Why is that? If you were forced to join against your will, as in a draft, or in some nations where it's required, doesn't seem that odd to complain about it.
I was as pro COVID vaccine as anyone but this is the definition of gaslighting. You couldn't go to school or work without a vaccine. You couldn't enter an airplane or hospital. Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated.
>Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated
And this is the definition of a lie of omission: the reason beleaguered ER docs might have considered this, even privately, probably had something to do with the fact that the deathly-ill unvaccinated took up all the beds, dying horribly on ventilators over a long period, cared for by bunny-suited staff who were beginning to tire. I believe the word is "triage".
There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID. Put more straightforwardly, there was a feeling that, if not for those who didn't get vaccinated, the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
>There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes
But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources?
>the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
>But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices?
What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?!
>Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources?
I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm!
>Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you!
The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
I don't understand your use of the word "triage". Unless I am mis-understanding, you are defining it as "we will triage unvaccinated Covid patients as "not needing care"". In which case - everything I've said still stands. Should we triage smokers with lung cancer as "not needing care"? You would also be conflating "triage a medical condition" with "make a moral judgement about deserving care".
Obviously there isn't a "bad choice" if the "right choice" has been forced on everyone (which is nearer the truth).
>I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system
And that's just one of many largely self-inflicted but expensive conditions that people receive treatment for, and (at least in the UK) at huge amounts of expense to the taxpayer.
>Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you!
Just to be clear, you said that "the healthcare system [was] full of those who didn't get vaccinated".
Finding out the percentage of hospitalisations that were unvaccinated and Covid-related does require comparing a few data sources, so it's not a simple Google away. I'll focus on mechanical ventilation usage, as that was the easiest data to find, and use UK data as that's where I live.
First - the easy number to find is the percentage of Covid patients in ICU who are unvaccinated. It varied during the main pandemic months between 50% and 75%[1]. Let's call it 62%.
Next - how many patients is that? Picking the end of December, that's around 750[2].
Finally - how many mechanical ventilators are available in total? It varies, but 5000 is a good number[3].
Multiplying it all out, the percentage of ventilated beds that were occupied at the end of December 2021 by unvaccinated, Covid-positive people was 9%.
In a thread about serious complications from taking the vaccine is this comment,
"all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID."
The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission. I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work.
>>"all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID."
>The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission
I said what you've quoted because it's literally true. Neither "sickness" nor "transmission" are binary. Getting vax'd doesn't prevent sickness -- but it prevents the very worst of it [0], and presumably can turn a moderate infection into a minor one. It doesn't prevent transmission, but it decreases viral load [1] and concomitantly seems to decrease infectivity.
Frankly, since it seems like we're all going to get COVID again and again anyway, I'd rather decrease its effect on my future health.
Am I a doctor? Do I support triage? Or am I just talking about why someone might take that position, given that they're the ones who have to clean up the consequences?
And, seriously, fat people? Do you really think that "a lifetime of eating choices, shaped by gut health, physical education, literal physical location, upbringing, and genetics" is equivalent to "sitting still for a vaccine, just like all the other ones you've uncontroversially received all your life"? Perhaps I've missed an easily-accessible vaccine against fat that the obese refused to get?
I don't think you do; I think you're choosing to present an untenable situation in order to score points. Just get the vaccine.
>Do you support the same for fat people? …and if not, why not?
I already answered this. No, I do not; please see the second paragraph in the grandfather comment. Why do you think that entirely illogical comparison has any place in this discussion? Just get the fat vaccine; duh! And there certainly weren't any fat people before late 2019! Wait, none of that's so? "Histrionics" indeed.
>You’re also ignoring that the vaccine is worse than the disease for the young and men under 40
This is a very bold claim. I roll to disbelieve! My magic charms give me a +2 to the roll. And I have darkvision.
Is there a free and effective vaccine against obesity that obese people are refusing to take? Are obese people acutely filling up hospitals causing issues for people in road accidents and with heart attacks getting delayed care?
Perhaps you haven’t crossed borders to places where it mattered enough for a protocol. Plenty places have required shots for entry visas and others for re-entry visas, and visas are checked by airlines before embarking then border control on disembarking. Other places ask to see more paperwork than just the visa, commonly asking for a vaccine journal or record.
For instance:
What vaccines are required for U.S. immigration?
At this time, vaccines for these diseases are currently required for U.S. immigration:
- Mumps
- Measles
- Rubella
- Polio
- Tetanus and diphtheria
- Pertussis
- Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
- Hepatitis A
- Hepatitis B
- Rotavirus
- Meningococcal disease
- Varicella
- Pneumococcal disease
I’ve crossed The borders of maybe ~50 countries and the parent is completely right, I have never once been asked to prove, especially not with some kind of electronic health passport that I was vaccinated with any of those things.
Perhaps you were selective about those ~50 countries, as the opening paragraph of Wikipedia agrees with my experience:
Vaccination requirements for international travel are the aspect of vaccination policy that concerns the movement of people across borders. Countries around the world require travellers departing to other countries, or arriving from other countries, to be vaccinated against certain infectious diseases in order to prevent epidemics. AT BORDER CHECKS, these travellers are required to show proof of vaccination against specific diseases; the most widely used vaccination record is the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP or Carte Jaune/Yellow Card). (emphasis supplied)
The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP), also known as the Carte Jaune or Yellow Card, is an official vaccination report created by the World Health Organization (WHO). As a travel document, it is a kind of medical passport that is recognised internationally and MAY BE REQUIRED FOR ENTRY to certain countries where there are increased health risks for travellers. (emphasis supplied)
As noted in prior comment, while I’ve had to have this card for some nations, most countries that require immunization record do it in order to get a VISA, and most airlines consider the visa sufficient.
It may also be that your ~50 countries were not in zones that have these practices. For example, I’ve traveled extensively in these green and light green zones that do:
// Parent is not “completely right”, only “anecdotally” right. Given the audience size of HN, it’s likely several readers share a birthday, and likely many readers have not experienced vax checks at borders. And yet, they exist.
You don't appear to have the faintest idea what gaslighting means.
Hint: this isn't it.
Yes, of course the rollout of covid vaccines was different than YOUR EXPERIENCE of all other vaccines. Because you weren't around when the polio vaccine rolled out, or for any influenza pandemics, or the plague, or smallpox. Have you thought for 15 seconds before speaking?
Obviously, when a new disease emerges and is killing millions of people, you have to do a NEW vaccine rollout, and so obviously, this is going to look different than the normal process where children receive a long list of vaccinations that have built up over the last century or so.
You need to get your basic facts straight before accusing those who actually are thinking about the issue of "gaslighting".
I was specifically talking about previous vaccine mandates during flu pandemics, as a point of comparison.
Is your comparison that we should act like medieval Europe? — otherwise I don’t know why you’re discussing the plague. We live in a different society with different standards. Despite accusing me of “not thinking”, you’re making completely absurd comparisons.
And it’s precisely that kind of nonsense response accusing me of not understanding which I believe is gaslighting.
Hospitals have always checked for vaccines in public health crises when relevant. That is part of the playbook. They have also required staff to be vaccinated for decades. Schools at all levels have required proof for decades. Those other businesses didn't need to check because most likely someone was already vaccinated or enough people were vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. COVID was the first virus and vaccine in decades that needed to be treated similarly to measles, etc.
Please stop throwing the word gaslighting around. First, it has a specific meaning that isn't relevant here. Second, using that word in this context just shows ignorance on the current topic.
Yes — accusing me of not using words right without addressing the substance is classic gaslighting, and responding with more gaslighting when called out about poor behavior is typical in gaslighters.
Oh geez. I think you are conflating disagreement with gaslighting. The simplest definition is trying to make someone question their own reality, often for malevolent ends. A debate, what this actually is, is about trying to convince someone of your point of view not distort the other's reality. A debate certainly could be used to gaslight, but gaslighting is a set of behaviors. A debate alone is not gaslighting. Disagreement is not gaslighting. Trying to convince another of your point of view is not gaslighting. Using debate tactics like personal attacks and word definitions is not gaslighting. Painting a broad brush and casting everyone that disagrees with your position "gaslighting", like you did in your very first response, is also not gaslighting. It is lazy, wrong, annoying but still not gaslighting. At least none of those things are gaslighting in isolation.
In other words, we disagree on the "facts". If you want to call that gaslighting, okay but then you are gaslighting me too (or trying). For the record, I don't think you are gaslighting. I do think I have offended you deeply which wasn't my intention so I apologize if I have.
No, a forced medical intervention would involve holding someone down and forcibly injecting a substance, forcing them to take a pill or submit to an operation. This is much more correctly characterized as coercion.
I suppose that is possible though I think using the same term to describe very different things begs for the creation of a new term. There appear to be concepts in medicine that touch upon this.
