So the "relationship between suckless and nazism" is:
- They picked an edgy name for an email server
- They went on a torchlit hike [0] once
- One of their members has dumb/conservative opinions on history (and vaccines too [1], unfortunately)
Is that it? Is there anything of substance?
LibreSSL's logo is a fish dressed like Che Guevara. FOSS is thick with adoration of communism and its murderous dictators. Plenty of developers who didn't live under communism have hammer-and-sickle Unicode in their Twitter bios. I don't like it, but I choose to ignore it. I don't begrudge Germans who are mad about the bombing of Dresden. I don't need to agree with the total cosmology of every individual FOSS maintainer, and so long as this standard is applied inconsistently I oppose it.
> One of their members has dumb/conservative opinions on history (and vaccines too [1], unfortunately)
Not sure if that vaccine stuff has any serious connection to suckless? I can see a few mailing list posts in a quick check, but no commits.
Suckless doesn't really have "members" anyway, it's just random people occasionally working on some code and occasionally a few people get together. Overall, it's not even very active.
Guess what, if you do a survey off all GNOME, Linux kernel, GNU, HN commenters, etc. you will find some people with unsavoury opinions. Does that mean all of GNOME are now Nazis? Or all of HN?
It's a single quasseldroid developer who started and keeps harping on about this as nauseam. For some reason, people keep taking it at face value. It has exactly the same intellectual and moral value as all that "no no, the Democrats and leftists are the REAL Nazis!!!" nonsense.
I appreciate WWII era german guns and their military inventions, whilst still condemn Nazism.
Separate art from the artist. Social justice warriors from anyside need to be shammed because all they do is take justice out of the hands of the legal justice system that we all agreed and put limits on, into their own hands and entirely based on subjectivist emotions and not much objectivity.
Hate Nazi lunatics? Go ahead and pass an amendment to the constitution that Nazi symbols are prohibited speech. That's democracy.
I loathe the post-modern social justice of any kind, from any person, from any side.
You can blend communism under democratic socialism without falling down to the side of Stalinism. Heck, even Jugoslavia was pretty open for the Marxist standards. They had media and computers from both sides of the Iron Courtain.
Legally.
You can't do the same with nazism. What could the Germans do, plan another shoa for Jews under a democratic referendum?
(also, with "adoration of communism and its murderous dictators" you belie your own biases and agenda. Just because SOME asshole dictators were ostensibly heads of communist states, doesn't automagically translate to "lol communism bad amirite". but you knew that already.)
>Under the leadership of Ernst Thälmann, the KPD became a Stalinist party that was fiercely loyal to the Soviet government. Since 1928, the KPD was largely controlled and funded by the Soviet government through the Comintern.
>It is important to note that there was infighting between the Republican factions, and that the Communists following Stalinism declared the POUM, the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification, (an anti-Stalinist communist party) to be an illegal organization, along with the Anarchists. The Stalinists betrayed and committed mass atrocities on the other Republican factions, such as torture and mass executions. George Orwell would record this in his Homage to Catalonia as well as write Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm to criticize Stalinism.
None of this is relevant to FOSS. I'd rather leave politics out whenever possible. So long as Suckless isn't worse than what's been alleged, I'm OK letting them slide.
I'm Basque (here politic debates were on every TV channel) and my family was sided with the CNT. Please, don´t lecture me on bullshit I know better than you by a huge margin.
Also, as I said, you know nil on Eurocommunism, which opposed Stalinism.
I didn't realize "Eurocommunism" was a proper noun referring to a more recent time period, and not a general reference to communism in Europe. I had never heard it before. My apologies.
It was a distinct ideology closer to a social democracy than a totalitarian dictatorship.
Jugoslavia still was a dictatorship, but it they didn't collapse down Jugo under ethnic wars, today it would be something like China but far more open and progressive. State Communism, yes, but without hurting personal freedoms.
You are very confused. Nobody is talking about the famous Charlottesville neonazi march. The discussion is about a (supposedly?) unrelated torchlit march that happened at a suckless conference.
The excuse given by suckless people is that torchlit marches are a common fixture in non-fascist German culture (I don't know if this is true or not).
It isn’t unrelated. Their reference to “cultural marxism” is a common antisemitic trope used by exactly the same groups of nazis who marched in Charlottesville. The whole lot of them use plausible deniability about their nazism to avoid tarnishing their reputations, but deliberately signal common themes to fellow travelers. Doing the one nazi thing in the context of an obvious reference to the other is exactly that kind of signal. I’m not confused. I’m unfortunately very familiar with how nazis organize and present themselves.
In your original comment, you're explicitly lying about the Suckless team in a manner that is libelous and defamatory. I think you ought to reconsider doubling down. Furthermore, "Cultural Marxism" has been a political term of art on the mainstream American right for decades. Glenn Beck (remember him? I do my best to forget) was using it on TV over a decade ago.
Everyone you disagree with on the Internet is not, in fact, necessarily a Nazi.
> In your original comment, you're explicitly lying about the Suckless team in a manner that is libelous and defamatory.
That’s news to me? I thought I was correcting a mischaracterization of one event rather than a different event.
> Furthermore, "Cultural Marxism" has been a political term of art on the mainstream American right for decades. Glenn Beck (remember him? I do my best to forget) was using it on TV over a decade ago.
I don’t know what you think your point is, but the notion that Glenn Beck as a mainstream political commentator is a baseline is horrifying. He might not have realized he was promoting antisemitic conspiracy theories, but he’s openly acknowledged he was promoting unfounded conspiracy theories. It’s entirely possible he wasn’t aware of which dogs he was whistling. And with that said…
> Everyone you disagree with on the Internet is not, in fact, necessarily a Nazi.
I quite recognize that. I don’t think you’re a nazi for instance, but I do hope you’ll recognize how the actual nazis organize with plausibly deniable innuendo and inevitable defense by people who aren’t willing to jump to the conclusions they know their compatriots will. But if you think people signaling their intent with obvious reference to historical and contemporary fascist movements isn’t indicative, well. Fortunately for you, they’re probably not targeting you, yet. Unfortunately for everyone else, their barely disguised tactics are obviously effective.
One more point.
> Everyone you disagree with on the Internet is not, in fact, necessarily a Nazi.
I confront nazis in the street. Not the internet. I’ve seen them do horrible things with no consequence and often with support of the state. I am not adept at or interested in confronting nazis on the internet. But I am very interested in confronting where their internet tactics show any signs of mainstreaming where I also interact.
>I confront nazis in the street. Not the internet.
Most people I've met who say things like this are actually the violent, authoritarian, illiberal threat to democracy they claim to oppose. They tend to lie a lot, too. Your utter refusal to admit the mistake or intentional falsehood of your first comment informs me as to your motives and intentions.
I understand now that their march was a separate one. My intent was not and is not to refuse to admit error in understanding the full context of a thing, I certainly misunderstood and thought they had in fact marched in Charlottesville. Mea culpa.
I stand by the point that nazis and other fascists use this sort of thing to signal their beliefs to each other and to muddy the water about their meaning and intent in so doing. And after another look I still believe that’s what it was, and that it should be called out.
As far as “violent, authoritarian, illiberal threat to democracy”, I can’t claim to ever have ‘punched a nazi’ or any such thing, although I hardly consider that action illiberal or any threat to meaningful democracy. I was referring to going to places where they gather and unequivocally vocally opposing them. My point was that I don’t need to conjure imagined nazis on the internet, they’re pretty visible in public meatspace.
Are you confusing the Suckless team with the Charlottesville neo-Nazis? I don't see anything about Suckless shouting those things or attending such rallies. If they did it would obviously change the equation. If they didn't you should probably edit or delete your comment.
> I don't need to agree with the total cosmology of every individual FOSS maintainer.
Well, sure. But since we're here, talking about neonazis, and we disagree with neonazism (right, deepdiver?), I'll pass on their software.
Let me rephrase it.
I wont politically check every author of every software i use, but since the internet randomly revealed to me this group of neonazis write that software, I won't use it.
>Well, sure. But since we're here, talking about neonazis
You're begging the question. They're edgy conservatives, clearly. Neo-Nazis? Show me. I object to a blinkered political hypersensitivity that permits on the one hand violent, authoritarian tendencies if you're far enough left, and bans on the other hand anyone right of Bill Clinton. I think it's unhealthy for the FOSS community and tech as a whole.
>and we disagree with neonazism (right, deepdiver?)
> They're edgy conservatives, clearly. Neo-Nazis? Show me
Everything was in the links, no need to re-iterate.
> And we don't beat our wives. Right, gtsop?
I don't, can't speak for others. Dodging a question with another one won't cut it though. Seems like it's extremely hard for you to even suggest neonazism is remotely bad. First you see nothing of substance to suckless' activity and then you make references of the far left to somehow balance out the existence of neonazis. I wonder what your arguments would be was it not for the for the far left existing.
Your posturing as commissar, judge, and high inquisitor is as comical as it is repulsive. It is exactly why I commented in the first place, and a type of bad behavior I will always push against. Demonstrating that it is possible to disagree with and even ignore rhetoric like yours is important to the health of an open society.
I have to give it to you, your tactics are great. You keep reframing the conversation to plant a convinient enemy against you, gifting your arguments a false sense of ethical superiority. E.g: you frame me as a commissar while you talk of an healthy open society (making it look like you have the moral high ground), however i never possed as a commissar and the only instance of your "open society" talk was when you renamed "hitler's house name" to "edgy" and saw nothing wrong.
Disagreeing and conversing is a necessity to humankind. You say my rhetoric is bad, I say yours is, let history decide.
- They picked an edgy name for an email server
- They went on a torchlit hike [0] once
- One of their members has dumb/conservative opinions on history (and vaccines too [1], unfortunately)
Is that it? Is there anything of substance?
LibreSSL's logo is a fish dressed like Che Guevara. FOSS is thick with adoration of communism and its murderous dictators. Plenty of developers who didn't live under communism have hammer-and-sickle Unicode in their Twitter bios. I don't like it, but I choose to ignore it. I don't begrudge Germans who are mad about the bombing of Dresden. I don't need to agree with the total cosmology of every individual FOSS maintainer, and so long as this standard is applied inconsistently I oppose it.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_Zapfenstreich
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/11/linus_torvalds_vaccin...