> Look at what happened with the twitchcon party thing with the open cups of alcohol and a bunch of people got drugged. Now that was just bad party planning as well, but for random attendees, I get it - they didn't know that some of the cups were spiked.
That's a good example. What degree of responsibility do the innocent attendees of that twitchcon have for the misconduct that happened there? I'm not familiar with the whole story, but if it was a big thing I'm guess most weren't aware of it. It's interesting to consider how culpable, if at all, the attendees and influencers at the event were, as well as those who reported on it afterwards.
> Fair enough, but this is almost like someone saying they got married on 9/11 and that is why they had a great day so it wasn't as bad as people remember? It doesn't seem related at all if you weren't there.
For one I don't think the author ever said it "wasn't as bad as people remember". He's not making an effort to discount anybody's negative experience. He's just saying that it was indeed a bit of a shitshow and yet his 17 year old self still had a memorable and overall good time. And I think he acknowledges his own blindness to the really bad things that he learned later had happened, but he doesn't seem to take any blame upon himself for it, which to me is reasonable.
How about this example: I was at an occupy wall street protest where I learned later a lot of criminal activity was suspected to have occurred. Let's say I still see it as an overall positive experience and I don't regret having attended. Is that similar to where the author stands w.r.t. Woodstock `99?
> What degree of responsibility do the innocent attendees of that twitchcon have for the misconduct that happened there? I'm not familiar with the whole story, but if it was a big thing I'm guess most weren't aware of it. It's interesting to consider how culpable, if at all, the attendees and influencers at the event were, as well as those who reported on it afterwards.
Right, so it's actually really interesting and I'd ask that you go look up the details yourself, don't believe me obviously.
So basically the problem was, at the party, the organizers (twitch / amazon employees) took a bunch of cups, and filled them with alcohol, and set them on a table, beer pong style. Like just sitting there, open top, etc. And left them unattended.
Now - not only is this probably against some kind of alcohol serving rules or licensing problems, but it's also the opposite of what any bartender would do. Especially in Vegas or cities with a lot of clubs and people where drugging may be a problem, girls and bartenders know the rules:
1. If some stranger orders you a drink, you take the drink from the bartender, you don't let the stranger buy a drink, and bring it to you, since they might spike it on the way.
2. If a bartender pours out a drink and sets it on the bar, and the other person isn't in like visible sight of reaching out to pick it up, or looks distracted, they will watch the glass until it is retrieved, or put a coaster on top to prevent anyone from dropping something in the drink.
3. Obviously nobody is watching for people who may be showing signs of being drugged or too drunk, there's no cutoff line since it's more like a beer fridge than a bar. Bartenders are not supposed to serve you more alcohol, even if you ask for it, if they think you are too intoxicated. I think they might even be liable in some way if they don't.
Okay, so what happened here is almost exactly like what happened at Woodstock '99. Here's the parallels.
Twitch, owned by Amazon, in all its hubris and thinking about how great it was, decided for some reason that they would not hire a bartender to handle this for them. They thought they could handle it themselves. "It's just pouring out drinks, we remember this from college last year," they say. Ignorant? You bet. Evil intention? probably not. But they've never done food service, they've never run a party, especially not one with girls (only half joking here).
But overall they were violating obvious best practice that could have been found if they just contacted a professional or even did a google search. Hell, even talking to a woman would have probably brought up this problem. But they missed it.
So to put on my INTJ judicial robes for a moment, here's the punishments.
Amazon is guilty of gross negligence. They should have known better. The individual employees I think shouldn't be sued individually, and should be covered by Amazon's corporate liability insurance, which I'm sure is considerable. Also, of all the things they could have done for a party, why did they have to choose alcohol? A bunch of people objected to this, mostly women, who said it might make them feel like it's an unsafe environment with drunk people drooling around and on them.
Anyone doing spiking of drinks is criminally liable. That's obvious right? You put something in the drink, you're committing an actual crime, so that's bad. You get all the blame, and the blame of anything that happens because of it, even if you didn't do it (think like all the DUI / murder complications).
Anyone seeing something but not saying anything I think is morally liable. I'd feel terrible if I noticed something and didn't check up on it or say something. But on the other hand, I don't necessarily feel that everyone has a duty to report and fix all the crime in the city. Everyone has to also be responsible for themselves and the situations they get in.
> For one I don't think the author ever said it "wasn't as bad as people remember". He's not making an effort to discount anybody's negative experience
I agree, I'm reading into it a bit, but the way that the story is edited gives that vibe that that is the story. The medium is the message, all that.
I don't think he deserves any blame personally. I just think that 20 years after, and reflecting on all this because the news brought it up... these are about the most nothingburger conclusions or thoughts ever. Most people learn something of at least some kind of wisdom in that time. Like, I can't believe that I thought that was fun, but it was, etc. And I think that obvious lack of reflection and lesson learning isn't unique to this person, I think it's a huge percentage of an entire generation of people. Even saying "I'm amazed that I had such a great time at such a crazy and time defining event" would have been better than "I was there."
"I was there." seems like the call of the by-standard who will stand there and watch you get beaten on the street, and since they aren't doing the beating, they don't feel bad at all. But, as it is said, for evil to flourish it just takes good men to do nothing. And it's so true.
So should they both have known better? Absolutely. Were they running afoul of the law, probably (occupancy, alcohol, arson, etc) - but I'm not a lawyer. Does it look bad? Absolutely. And the legal system simply cannot take the stand that ignorance of the law means that it's not wrong. Especially when everyone knows that bartenders serve alcohol and there are rules for doing it, and schools that do it, and licenses for it. Any 25 year old would have known this. But not really any one, but one exercising common sense (in the very loose legal idea of common sense, that most people would know).
> I was at an occupy wall street protest where I learned later a lot of criminal activity was suspected to have occurred. Let's say I still see it as an overall positive experience and I don't regret having attended. Is that similar to where the author stands w.r.t. Woodstock `99?
I'd say so, but also, it depends on the criminal activity that occurred. Are we talking like trespassing as a part of protest? Or maybe living on the street? Or are we talking about arson? Sexual assault? I would judge it exactly the same. If you said "it was a beautiful effigy that was burning on the starbucks headquarters, and nothing burns like an effigy" I'd probably put you in the "what are you thinking???" camp.
That's a good example. What degree of responsibility do the innocent attendees of that twitchcon have for the misconduct that happened there? I'm not familiar with the whole story, but if it was a big thing I'm guess most weren't aware of it. It's interesting to consider how culpable, if at all, the attendees and influencers at the event were, as well as those who reported on it afterwards.
> Fair enough, but this is almost like someone saying they got married on 9/11 and that is why they had a great day so it wasn't as bad as people remember? It doesn't seem related at all if you weren't there.
For one I don't think the author ever said it "wasn't as bad as people remember". He's not making an effort to discount anybody's negative experience. He's just saying that it was indeed a bit of a shitshow and yet his 17 year old self still had a memorable and overall good time. And I think he acknowledges his own blindness to the really bad things that he learned later had happened, but he doesn't seem to take any blame upon himself for it, which to me is reasonable.
How about this example: I was at an occupy wall street protest where I learned later a lot of criminal activity was suspected to have occurred. Let's say I still see it as an overall positive experience and I don't regret having attended. Is that similar to where the author stands w.r.t. Woodstock `99?