The Tiktok algorithm we have rewards repetitive dancing in front of the camera, pulling ("fake") pranks and random snippets from movies edited together with dramatic music added.
In China (their app is called Douyin), the algorithm rewards things they want their youth to be doing. Content which involves maths, engineering, medicine, etc are rewarded.
I'm certain that there is some strategic motive from China to push American children in the wrong direction with the invention of this app. Kids and teenagers spending their time and energy on unproductive activities which will lead to the next generation being ever-so slightly behind.
Everyone's TikTok experience is different. Although sometimes you do need to long-press on a video and say you're not interested, the experience as a whole tends to be relatively finely tailored per person.
For example, many of my videos for a long time were basically short essays about current events, relationship advice, (edit: BIPOC) creators, interesting skits or stories about Marvel or DC characters and so on.
Silly dance junk and pranks are certainly not what I see. There is _some_ dance stuff, but it's in subgenres I'm interested in and so I've given those the watch time.
You can curate yourself to things you're interested in. It's not that hard and it's strongly recommended.
You can both be right. It doesn’t take much for TikTok to show 20% learning content to Chinese people and only 5% to westerners. And no one would know.
But I think it’s much worse. TikTok is clearly the goto place now for divisive content on LGBT issues, it’s provoking massive political arguments. And I’m sure this is just scratching the surface. I have no doubt it’s a global sentiment manipulation tool for the CCP. Why wouldn’t they do it is the question that should be answered.
Maybe what the CCP believes is bad for us (LGBT rights?) is exactly what we need to move forward?
They say divisive content, I say lively political debate. They say stability, I say stagnation. They say decadence, I say liberty.
If there is a masterplan to blow up the west with silly music videos, then maybe our society deserves to be blown up and replaced by something freer and stronger?
>If there is a masterplan to blow up the west with silly music videos, then maybe our society deserves to be blown up and replaced by something freer and stronger?
I'd be much more sympathetic to this line of thought if society getting blown up - even if it ultimately results in improvement - didn't usually involve unbelievable amounts of suffering and death.
I long pressed on videos to say "not interested" that show gross dermatology videos, root canals, and ear cleaning. I would still repeatedly get those when I was using the app.
Pressing "not interested" does nothing. The reason you keep getting these is because you subconsciously enjoy them. You look a few seconds more than someone who truly doesn't want to see it.
TikTok doesn't just show inane dance videos in America. It shows them throughout the world. If China had some evil plan to poison the minds of youth they are not just targeting American kids.
In reality, Hanlon's razor applies. It's better explained by apathy rather than an evil masterplan. China simply doesn't care about non-Chinese kids, they consider that the American government is responsible for American kids' welfare.
When an APT like China is concerned (or, eg the CIA), you'd be foolish to wantonly apply Hanlon's razor. I'm not saying it never applies, but some of the lengths nations go to in order to gain an advantage over their adversaries is astounding. Think NSO iPhone hack†. It's been documented that the CCP requires a party member be allowed to see into the company's private business dealings, or else face the same fate as Jack Ma‡. The Chinese version of TikTok, Douyin, is heavily scrutinized, eg (from down-thread) https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53840167.
I have not wantonly applied Hanlon's razor. You missed the first part where I said that TikTok is the same in every non-Chinese market. Friend or foe. There is no targeted attack towards America. They simply do not care about non-Chinese kids at all.
Obviously China does care about the Chinese internet, it is heavily censored as we all know. But it is a giant leap from "China censors Chinese-TikTok" to "China is trying to make American kids stupid with dance videos". The corollary is that the people claiming this want China to heavily censor American TikTok so that it is more like Chinese TikTok!
>In someways China is ultra-capitalistic. They will sell what people want.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Pornography, anything deemed prurient by the government, anything deemed corrosive to social values, even trivial things like the depiction of zombies and ghosts in media, is strictly controlled by the communist government of China without respect for corporate profits.
Not sure about you but my TikTok algorithm just shows anime hot takes, quick facts about world events, and a goat named Billy Earl who can't stay off of the neighbor's damn house.
If all you see are pranks and dances it's probably what you went on there looking for.
It's easy to blame the user for what the algorithm selects, but unless you go search for eg "math", it's difficult for the algorithm to decide you want to view any of the content that's harder to digest than the trivial dance videos. Given the app's roots, it's not surprising it see's dances as the primary content to start surfacing to new accounts to start engagement.
> push American children in the wrong direction with the invention of this app
Even American apps (Facebook/Instagram/Twitter) have performed no better in this regard. Maybe the reason is the underlying demand for such content rather than any malicious intent.
Where did you get the idea that douyin pushes math and engineering? It would never gain popularity in that way. In fact, the Chinese haters say the exact same thing as you do, that douyin is full of dancing and movie cuts, is a poison of mind and only for the stupid people.
This is not true. If you search "popular douyin" in Youtube (yes, it gets uploaded in ytb as well), you'll find similar types of videos as you can find in tiktok. One difference is that girls will be wearing more as the culture in China is more conservative on that perspective.
Got source? The social media market in China is fiercely competitive and TikTok (Douyin) got to be king of the hill by delivering exactly what its users want, not what the CCP wishes they wanted.
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We ban accounts that do this because we're trying for a different sort of forum here.
Obviously Douyin is censored, everything in China is, but there's a loooong history of cat and mouse as apps and creators push the envelope and the state stomps down when they go too far.
> I'm certain that there is some strategic motive from China to push American children in the wrong direction
I don't buy that. Engaging content is engaging content. Math is boring everywhere. You can push on trends at the edges, but there's no way Douyin is going to succeed, even in the PRC, as a social virtue nag. And there's no need to invoke a conspiracy theory to explain why western kids are drawn to fashion and fun.
Are you sure it's a difference in algorithm? I would not be surprised if that was the natural outcome of heavy censorship where pranks and lewd dancing get removed or accounts banned.
I think the trick is to understand it, and once you realize what your choices are, then it's an easy decision not dictated by fear. That is, you either work towards a future where choice remains, or you concede choice until you have none left.
Reality is made of results, not intentions, so ultimately it's those that we're accountable for. This is one of the most considerable challenges for a species with such creativity, emotional drive, and long vision.
I fear the results of a world where China's deliberate moves towards dominance are unopposed, or ineffectively opposed. Even if everyone has the right intentions as we face down that risk, it's the results that matter.
The means create the ends, and the ends do not justify means, in my opinion. I disagree that the means, or intent as you say, is unimportant.
Your emotional reaction is a choice. You can choose to both not be afraid and still walk through fire, so to speak. Proactively exercising your right to free speech will set you on the path towards the ends you desire.
>You can choose to both not be afraid and still walk through fire, so to speak.
Fear is a healthy emotion, properly tempered. And it's an entirely rational response to a threat to my freedom and way of life. China is no less than that.
>Yes, and, expressing emotions helps us move beyond them.
Yes and sometimes in expressing those emotions we realize that they're underlayed by a logical basis that our instinct was informing us about, as when we fear the rise of a genocidal communist dictatorship as a global power monger.
It's certainly up to you how to feel about being faced with that. I can't say I fear China taking over. Some may perceive power as a position of relaxation, but it's really about responsibility, and I don't think the Chinese government wants that. They just want other countries to let them manage things how they see fit, and they currently view influencing us as a means to achieve that. Also, the subjugation of China's population is aided by the rest of the world, in a sense, when we make purchases primarily based on price. Not to mention issues with language, etc. China is the biggest country the world's ever seen. That doesn't mean they're about to conquer the world. Not saying we shouldn't be prepared though.
this part I'm not too sure about. Historically speaking, China has been rather "introverted" as a country. They care about making sure their people are well fed and all, but seem to show a distinct lack of imperialism compared to say, the Romans, or Arabs under early Islam, Napoleonic France or Nazi Germany.
Modern China exhibits genuine imperialism. They've even developed and published plans for dominating world standards bodies by 2035[1]. They're crafting a gigantic blue water navy[2]. They maintain a standing army with larger numbers of soldiers than the US, to put on those ships[3]. And they have no qualms about exerting their power globally, challenging freedom of navigation at sea[4] and territorial integrity on land[5]. In their meticulous and naive way, they are most certainly pursuing a world domination strategy.
I'm not sure any of this stands out to me as particularly imperialistic. The standards thing just seems like a sensible move to try and get leadership in high tech industries, which any country would be smart to do. As for the military aspects, I think this is a bit funny. China has 2m active military personnel vs 1.3m US active personnel, which doesn't seem outlandish whey you compare populations.
As for the fleet and the disputes, we are literally talking about disputes between China and the US in the South China sea. All these disputes are quite clearly about China being pissed off that the US is projecting power right on their doorstep. It's similar to Russia parking its missiles in Cuba - completely unacceptable to the US. I don't think it's unreasonable for China to be looking at finding ways to challenge that hegemony.
I'm not going to try and make the claim that US and China are similar regimes- they're not, not at all. I don't beleive for a second that a hegemonic China with power similar to what the US has had would be anywhere near as good as the US has (and I'm not saying the US is perfect). But I do think there's a certain level of asymmetrical judgement here. Why is the US running warships through disputed waters off the coast of China? That seems a lot more like US Imperialism than Chinese Imperialism.
>All these disputes are quite clearly about China being pissed off that the US is projecting power right on their doorstep.
The South China Seas dispute is, in fact, primarily between China and a series of smaller nations like the Philippines and Japan. International governing bodies including an UNCLOS tribunal have consistently ruled against China's claims of sovereignty to open sea, but China keeps on doing it anyway.
I’m not defending China’s claims- they’re clearly fairly spurious and embedded in a fairly questionable end of WWII. The truth is it’s just a pretext for having a gateway from the South China Sea to the rest of the world- which I don’t think is particularly unreasonable as an aim. The question is why US war ships are 7000 miles from the mainland US, if I had to pick I would say that is far more imperialistic. And again to reiterate- I prefer the US as a hegemonic power, but let’s be real about what’s happening.
>The truth is it’s just a pretext for having a gateway from the South China Sea to the rest of the world- which I don’t think is particularly unreasonable as an aim.
But you're shifting around from principles to consequentialism. Suddenly, whatever rules China breaks, even if they are extremely serious ones to do with territorial control that underlie the peaceful international order we've enjoyed since WW2 ended, it's fine with you as long as it's in pursuit of an aim that you consider reasonable?
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You're right, total false equivalence. Plain clothes thugs hired or forced to show up in person, and you can assume plain clothes users are hired or forced to comment online too.
It's how they stay in power, a living army ready to deploy for anything that makes them look bad.
Sure I'd do the same for my country, but the difference is I am not forced to do it. I choose to defend our values while earning a decent living.
In China (their app is called Douyin), the algorithm rewards things they want their youth to be doing. Content which involves maths, engineering, medicine, etc are rewarded.
I'm certain that there is some strategic motive from China to push American children in the wrong direction with the invention of this app. Kids and teenagers spending their time and energy on unproductive activities which will lead to the next generation being ever-so slightly behind.