I'm 18, and this pretty much describes the last four months of my life (since starting at a soul-crushing community college). That depression -> realization -> joy -> productivity -> slipping -> depression cycle is something I've become intimately familiar with. I've considered therapy, of course, but I keep hoping it's short-term, and I don't necessarily want to spend the money if I have the ability to tame it myself.

edit: glad to see you changed the title :)

I urge you to seek out some low-cost options for counseling, if only to get an objective opinion of where you're at. Time is money, after all, and you can either spend a bit now, or waste all those hours of life continuing to feel bad.

In the general case it is a poor idea to refer people to their own families. This is sometimes hard for those of us with happy and supportive families to remember, but a lot of folks have problems that are caused by their families. And remember that seeing more of the people one is already seeing may not be a cure for depression. To fix depression you have to change something.

As for why pros are useful, in any field: They have likely seen thousands of people with your problem; they know a larger list of things to try; they know how to start out with the cheap and simple options but are also aware of how to escalate and have experience with escalation and know the consequences of non-escalation; they aren't involved in your life and can therefore act more freely and with fewer conflicts of interest; they have access to important tools that non-pros do not (in the case of mental health professionals this includes drugs, like the drugs that have improved the lives of so many people I know); they take the problem seriously; merely visiting one will help you confront your problem (the twelve-step programs aren't just being glib: admitting you have a problem really is the first step - once you take conscious, subconscious, and social ownership of a problem it's amazing how often you can fix it yourself).

And, most important of all, in the mental health field pros are not on the effing Internet. They are morally, professionally, and legally compelled to avoid publicly talking about you, or talking to your friends, or even being in the same room with you outside of therapy. The same cannot be said of your friends or family, let alone of random jerks like myself on Hacker News.

Now, having delivered the most epic disclaimer in HN history, I'll point out that the commenter above (unlike the person who wrote the submitted blog post) evidently knows the cause of his or her own distress; it is sitting there in the comment in black and white. Brainstorming what to do about it might be better done by a discreet, independent observer who is actually on the scene, however.

Look for environmental issues like exams coming up or work pressures, or anything that if a friend were experiencing, you'd be more understanding of. And if you can't find any, at least you have the knowledge that it's a cycle and not permanent.

Also, make your decisions when you're up. Do the work on yourself you need to do when you're up. Call the social worker, the therapist, plan to meditate. Because you have the energy. Remember the highs and the lows, use the highs to help the lows. Think of it as integrating two aspects of yourself, rather than trying to get rid of the one that is down.

I would bet you have more of a handle on things than many. Understand that you are young and nothing, I repeat, nothing can substitute for experience. And when you make sure to learn from every experience you have by utilizing self reflection, well, you will understand life and it's bliss.

If anyone tells you life and the journey it provides is easy, they are lying. If anyone tells you it sucks, they are lying.

When I started high school I thought I wasn't good at anything. I was pretty rebellious and took up smoking / drinking at a young age. Then I started debating and found out I was pretty good at that, but it wasn't enough to pull me out of my slump. Turns out, winning debates is only cool to other debaters. I remember riding the bus full of idiots to school, listening to Modest Mouse on my first iPod, just wondering why life generally sucked.

When I went to college I tried to be one of those thoughtful types. My subconscious goal was to make everyone think I was tormented by deep thoughts. It was my way of trying to get people to like me and to feel special. (I was not conscious of this at the time). I smoked cigarettes a lot, became a vegetarian, and thought about how nothing matters. Reading Nietzsche for fun made me feel profound, and truly I learned a lot from it, but if I'm honest with myself I did it because I wanted people to respect me.

That's what I was missing in my life, what made me feel so bad for so long. I just didn't feel respected. I didn't think people took me seriously enough. I quit college debate, joined another student organization and became known as a friendly and smart guy there. Almost overnight everything got better. As I started getting happier and more respected by my peers, I also started becoming more ambitious. I dreamed about becoming president one day, about starting massive companies, about changing history.

That was about 3 years ago, and I've been mostly happy since that point in my life. Gradually I shed my old bad habits, like smoking, and picked up some good ones, like eating healthier and exercising. I no longer want people to think of me as someone who is tormented by his genius. I realized that people really don't relate to or respond well to that. I still want to be respected, but now I'm capable of getting respect because I learned the first step is to be a warm person towards others - not by trying to project any sort of image. The problem is that we all project an image whether we want to or not, so we have a tendency to try and control it. I've found that I'm happiest and I feel most respected when I'm focusing on the matter at hand rather than myself. Whether it's designing an interface (my job) or talking to a friend, I find I am happiest when I'm not thinking about myself.

Hope this helps somebody who's feeling like I felt 4 years ago.

I have been diagnosed with bipolar I at age 29, and while I was able to come back out an extreme manic + delusional phase without hurting anyone nor myself too much, I now know the terrible danger that lies there. I selfmedicated with various drugs since age 13, and after having found a substance that stabilized me in a reasonable amount, I decided to go see a psychiatrist. Lucky as I am, some pills and a round of psychoeducation fixed almost all of it.

At least I am not caught up in the cycle so much that I can't reflect on it and follow the "backup steps" when I need to (sports + friends + happy stuff when I spiral downward, more sleep, less socializing, less work when I am skyrocketing upwards). And I am able to see the value in leading a boring life, doing stuff you like and getting paid for it, and someday in the not too far away future having a house and a garden and kids and just riding a smooth ride at 50 km/h. Not missing the highs and not fearing the lows.

The key thing to all of this is though: the pills did it. After 29 years I am suddenly able to a) have a grasp what a normal life is / can be, b) recognize my own feelings without being completely overwhelmed by them, c) realizing that even just thinking about suicidal thoughts is a sign that something is wrong.

Of course this is all terribly subjective, but the closest you can come to objectivity (hah!) is getting professional help. Getting feel-good advice or whatever on the internet doesn't even work for normal well-understood illnesses, so think about what it is for mental illnesses.

I have always had an issue with depression, but its been getting worse lately as basically friends have moved on (married, house, kids). I went to see my university councillor who, emotionally I felt just wanted me out the door and just gave general feel-good advice. I couldn't cope and then defacto dropped out of my fully-paid phd at Oxford.

Then my dad dragged me to the doctor who gave me some antidepressants, which I have to say worked amazing while I took them - much to my utter surprise. I expected the drugs to be overcharged placebo effect. They didn't make me feel happier, but I felt the relief that my "downs" were no longer so long or painful. The doctor recommended some therapy which ... didn't work for me at all. And was really expensive for an unemployed dropout. So I stopped them and stopped the medication being on a high, thinking I was better.

But now I'm realising I'm not. Your comment that "just thinking about suicidal thoughts is a sign something is wrong" struck a chord with me. I think I have a good CV, but I have found it impossible to get a job. My impression is that employers see a gap in work history, I say 'personal reasons' and they then thank me for my time. The cite lack of experience, but that's weird since I'm going for entry-level jobs.

So now I'd like to go back on the antidepressants, which seemed to do something, but without the associated therapy. I'm ambivalent about talking to people. It has to be someone I feel safe with, and whom I can relate to. Which seems to indicate friends, but lean on your friends too much, and they slip and slide away. Nobody likes a depressed friend. Least that's my experience.

Anyway, so how do you find a good professional? Just go down the list?

me: "i'd like an appointment with the head of psychiatry" secretary: "i'm sorry we don't take any patients" me: "i have private insurance" secretary: "how about tomorrow morning"

If there is something similar you can do in england, I would go for it, maybe just try to get an appointment with someone "higher-up". Maybe you have some friends who are or whose parents are in the medical profession, or something similar?

The bad experience I had was with someone similar to what you depicted, low-level student counsellor, who the minute I saw her I knew "this is not going to end well at all".

I wish you the best, don't give up. On the more prosaic and maybe a bit blindsighted side of advice, regular sleep, healthy food, a bit of exercise is the bottomline that I know I have to execute like a robot, not questioning it, not think about it. I have alarms all over my iphone for that kind of stuff: take out the garbage, clean your flat, do sports, shower. People think I'm crazy, but I know that when things are not going good, that little piece of technology is going to keep me on track.

sleep I don't really have a good handle on at all.

This cycle you described is something almost every human being on earth goes through, day to day. For some the down-phase is way stronger, crushing and exhausting, to an extent unimaginable for the rest. But still, everyone has it.

You made a good start by reflecting on the change-cycle of your feelings. Key is now to find a way to make best use of that knowledge in order to weaken the depression.

There are many different teachings that will help you find that wisdom.

Meditation (for example) can help you weaken that clinging for and aversion to 'good times' and 'bad times', resp. Clinging/Aversion itself is a very subtle process, which we usually don't notice consciously, but adds a lot to how our feelings turn out. Trying to be aware of it, gives you a whole new viewpoint of the status quo.

Maybe there's something about it in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism#References ?

It sounds like you are lacking fulfillment in your life and by extention happiness.

Exitement is happiness. Do something exiting.

Body chemistry is important, but the most effective measure (exercise) is also affected by cycles: sometimes I exercise for months, sometimes I don't move a finger for months. It's easier to take care of what I eat/drink/smoke, at least for me.

The other thing that works is routine. But not trying to control every thing I do or I don't. Working on something or writing, learning English, playing the guitar regularly, even half an hour a day results in progress. Progress makes confidence.

And solid confidence is the best thing to lean on.

Hope it helps.

I have, unfortunately, never discovered a solution. If you figure it out, remember to share.

I ended up not really going to see anyone, though. The one time I did see someone, I happened to not really be that depressed at the time, and so he seemed to think that there wasn't much wrong with me, but I wasn't sure I could trust his opinion since I don't think I could effectively relay how I feel when I am depressed to him. I'm going to try and push myself to actually go see someone again, though. Hopefully I'll be able to explain myself better, or at least see someone frequently enough that eventually my feelings will come out.

You might print out your posting and bring it in.

feel free to contact me if you wanna talk.

it gets better.

oliver@olivernowak.com

Obsessive thoughts are associated with OCD just as much as with depression. A lot of them happen because of pathways in the brain get strengthened over time so that a trigger will cause a particular thought pattern to occur. The triggers can be many different things, or a combination, from diet related, to amount of sleep, to words you heard and your subconscious brain started thinking about, to concepts you were exposed to. For example almost all of us have obsessive sexual fantasies which get triggered by exposure to porn. We have been conditioned by our society and advertising to have various cravings, etc.

Now, if you want control over these -- it will be a LONG TERM process because your brain gets wired like "hardware", some pathways get stronger over time and you can't re-wire it instantly. (Unless of course you are Phineas Gage, which you don't want.)

There is no 100% solution that works for everyone obviously. Sometimes you can't get from here to there. But if you use the model above, you can almost always make a number of serious changes in what you think about.

Try to identify your triggers by paying attention to specific things that happen before you get the obsessive thoughts. Try to isolate the parts of your mind that are engaged by these things. What commonality do these have? Learning more about your triggers helps you avoid them while you re-condition your brain.

Look at your expectations, which are internal pressures you put on yourself. You set yourself up for disappointment when something doesn't happen, when you find yourself in a certain state where the thing you expected didn't happen. This is a massive trigger, because it is set by yourself, and you self-identify with it. The worst triggers are the ones that you identify with having caused yourself.

Work on breaking bad associations. When I you to complete this two word phrase: "peanut-" do you think "-butter"? If this is negative to you, then try to introduce a competing association that doesn't give you negative triggers, and doesn't cause obsessive thoughts. For example, "peanut-taste". It certainly is a silly example (think of whatever is in your ACTUAL situation, it may not involve just two words but entire thoughts). But the point is, rather than saying "don't think about the pink elephant" and hoping it'll work, you try to associate one or more competing pathways with your triggers, and eventually, through the competition, you may remove the pathway that leads to suicidal thoughts or other obsessive thoughts.

Also you can set up competing pathways that lead OUT of your obsessive thoughts. These may be things you feel strongly about, such as your kids, pleasant associations from your childhood, or things you really want to accomplish in your life. Once you find yourself already thinking about suicidal thoughts, find ways out that worked for you, and write them down. They may lose their power over time, so it is important to find good reasons to believe in them. Notice this matches exactly what you did with the "Get busy living, or get busy dying." You used to say, "Suicidal thoughts? Stop thinking about them or just do it already." And it used to snap you out, but in the long term it just lost its authority just like anything else that fails to deliver on its promise for a long period of time. The best way is to have this combination of

competing pathways that AVOID leading into obsessive / depressing thoughts

and

competing pathways that lead OUT of obsessive / depressing thoughts

work together. Because, if you find that your episodes of having obsessive / depressing thoughts get more and more rare, you will find that you can TRUST the competing pathways to get you out, and unlike "stopping believing" (as you described above), you and your unconscious mind will trust them and follow them, and eventually you will minimize the problem.

Also, people are motivated by contrasts. When you have too much of X, or you get tired / bored of it, you start wanting an alternative to X, or perhaps even "not X". This is what can cause, for example, people who have everything to go and try something completely wacky, that would leave others saying, "what were they thinking?" This is only somewhat related, but if you want to motivate yourself to do something, artificially hold yourself back from the thing you want to do. You will feel the absence and the space and will be glad when given the chance to start doing it.

Finally, HABITS in the real world affects how often triggers come up. The ultimate prevention is by instilling better habits. As one example, some people with chronic joint pain avoid wheat products and find that their chronic joint pain goes away. In general, I would say getting lots of sleep and physical exercise -- especially assuming you are on the computer a lot, since you are here -- will effect positive PHYSICAL changes and can once again be something you can come to trust as a method to have a better life. This trust is important, and if you break your "good habit" out of laziness, your results won't be as pronounced and your trust won't be as strong. You have to let the habit earn its trust. Over time you will be able to take liberties with it, but not in the beginning.

Again these are just my own impressions on the topic, and I fully recognize that it's hard or impossible to do when you are actually EXPERIENCING the obsessive thoughts or depression, so I would recommend to do all your thinking during your "lucid" phase and then work with your "compromised" self -- i.e. the one present during the episodes -- to replace this depression with something better.

I invite any criticism of what I say, like I said I'm just sharing a model that seems to make sense to me.

I am sure you mean well, but the reality is that unless you an actual therapist, offering up advice does more harm than good.

Why do you have such high respect for the knowledge these therapists have? Isn't it a bit like cargo cult science?

If this sounds provocative, it is because I am trying to get a response and more info. Why is it that the various psychology schools are SO respected that any layman's advice or armchair theory is instantly considered "harmful" even though it is HELPFUL to people I know who aren't clinically depressed? I am just trying to understand why someone offering normal and rational advice is told that they are causing harm. There's some unsaid extra assumption here about the depressed people, and I would like to know what it is, and where is the evidence for it.

Oh.

> but I want to offer advice that I've figured out in my own experience, that lets you feel happy whenever you want to

Fun fact: Depression Does Not Work Like That.

Depression is insidious because it removes the will to get better. You don't lie around thinking "gee, I'm sad, I wish I was happy", whereupon your church newsletter list makes its entrance.

No: a depressed person simply is depressed. The idea that you could get better is both unimaginable and exhausting just to think about.

Depression progressively shuts all the doors until suicide seems, if you can be bothered to try it, the only sane thing left to do.

People with depression don't need to be cheered up. They need medical attention. Right now.

I don't mean to seem like I'm ragging on you personally, but you need to understand that variations on "snap out of it" and "put a smile on that dial!" don't work for a depressed person.

Still, I find it interesting that -- even though this advice would help many people to feel happier at will -- I get so much defensiveness in response. What is wrong with proposing a natural means to treat the symptoms of something, even if it does have a deeper cause? Is anything other than recognizing the need for a dose of drugs to correct a hormonal imbalance wrong? I'm just trying to understand the reaction, and I have no doubt that it's a genuine one. It goes far beyond the "drug industry + FDA vs natural remedies" thing. I mean, I find it fascinating: advice like that would be very useful to me and a lot of people who were not clinically depressed, like a psychological toolset to feel better, and which could, over the long term, actually bring about measurable changes in habits and confidence to feel better, and thus MAY, or at least has potential to, actually improve a long term condition.

I am just writing this to try to understand. Why do you intend to denigrate what I said by calling it a "Church Newsletter List". What does this have to do with religion? Am I not supposed to share my methods of feeling happier with someone who is Depressed (with a capital D, which was Diagnosed in the DSM-IV)? Am I not supposed to share ways I help motivate myself psychologically, with a person who is for example an alcoholic? I should just keep quiet about tools and technology that I have found useful to effect positive changes in myself, because someone is a Depressed, an Alcoholic, a Cripple, or whatever suddenly makes them "different"? Should I be scared of the moral "wrongness" to treat them with camaraderie, like other people I believe to be capable of understanding things? The only right thing to do is to refer them to a medical professional who will prescribe them drugs, and get the hell out of the way -- certainly never share any advice?

I listed 8 thing that you can try in your own life which will make you feel happier. It won't cure depression. I never claimed it cures depression. If you don't have the will to get better, you may not want to do them. But if you DO have the will to feel HAPPY in 10 mins, then doing them may help you, even if temporarily. What is wrong with that?

I just want to understand the reasons behind the reaction.

Did you read what I wrote? Let me put it in the simplest possible terms.

You haven't been depressed.

You don't know what it's actually like.

Your list of exercises would not work for a depressed person and by thinking that it will you perpetuate the impression that depressed people are just 'putting it on' to garner sympathy and attention.

Depression is a serious condition that ought to be given medical attention.

Your list would appeal to non-sufferers, who might try to foist it on sufferers. What non-sufferers should be doing is dragging sufferers to see a doctor.

Insofar as advice like yours prevents people seeking help for themselves or others, it is actively harmful.

As a side question -- and I am really just trying to find out more -- you are extremely confident that depression must be given medical attention and only medical attention. Can you elaborate on that? What specifically do you mean by this? Is it a well known condition that can be treated in all cases? Or is it a cargo-cult-science type thing where some things are treated but over half the cases are just handwaving? When a psychologist says "you should see me again, how about next week" how do you know they are actually helping? etc. When a psychiatrist prescribes a drug, how do you know people wouldn't be cured without it? I am just asking how do you know, because I really want to have more information about it. And since you seem confident I want to ask what you know about this condition. Is it one specific disease or is it just a general guessing game by the experts, kind of like the drugs in these studies: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_...

Seriously though, just by skimming over your online presence for 5 minutes, I wish I was in your shoes.

You're an aspiring programmer that seems to have had an at least somewhat early start with coding going to one of the best CS schools in the country. You haven't even graduated yet and you've already scored an internship from an awesome software company. I envy you.

The "meaning" of your life is what you make it and it seems like you are in an excellent position to have complete control over your future. This is fairly rare and so valuable, don't let depression take that away.

I liked your slides. :) Thats the kind of advice I dish out - more because my dad was in the Navy and thats what I used to receive from him.

But the truth is, it doesnt help in anyway when your trying to support/help someone who is depressed.

Truth is you could have the best career, a loving girlfriend and $300K in the bank and you could still be depressed. Its got nothing to do with his external life - its an internally (biologically) created situation.

depression is not a sign of weakness. if anything, publicly expressing your emotions and the struggles you go through shows real strength, especially when compared to hiding from your pain.