I've done this in Portugal, but on a smaller scale and pretty much with only my own labor. I purchased 6 hectares (15 acres) for mid-5-figures.
I've built an A-frame studio house for around €10k (excl tools), and installed a 5kw solar system for about another €10k. The house has air conditioning and underfloor heating (water-based, heated using wood from the land).
I've also brought a 50-year-old tractor and started a rural ISP.
Just to add some thoughts that the questions below prompted.
I've realised that I really enjoy infrastructure projects. I get to be sat in my little house and phone up huge telecommunication companies and ask for things. Our provider lit up 250km of fibre to our local single-track train station. I get to do lots of stuff where I think, "errr.... am I allowed to do this?", and I love it.
The large providers are skeptical at first, but once they realise you are registered with the national telecoms regulator they realise that you're actually serious and get onboard. They were bemused, but they went with it. I think they actually found it nice to work with a mom-and-pop organisation for a change.
Sounds cool, like a fantasy. How far is the house from stores like groceries and other necessities? Must be out of the city I'm guessing? So you'd have to do a long drive every now and then to buy things?
I can walk to the nearest village in about 10 minutes, although it doesn't have much in the way of amenities.
The nearest city is about a 20 minute drive away. The region capital is about 30 minutes away. Lisbon & Porto are about 2.5 hours away each.
Anything I go to regularly is 20-40 minutes away.
The roads are of high quality and mostly empty. Petrol is about €1.80/litre, a return trip to Lisbon costs around €80 in fuel in my 2019 Suzuki with a 1 litre engine, plus around €20 in tolls assuming you take the motorway.
One question I always have when people build houses with large windows: don't you worry about someone smashing the windows and stealing stuff when you're away?
Not any more than you worry about someone kicking in your shit-tacular cheap door, or drilling the lock out. Homes aren't often fortresses; you'd build differently if you lived in an unsafe, unstable area. Lots of homes in America have no property walls or fences, either--probably the supermajority of them. I assume that's also true for Canada, especially in uh, the woods.
I have a full pane glass door into my shop. I’m definitely replacing it for this reason. Someone could absolutely break in by other means and there’s other windows big enough for a person (by regulation), but somehow a big door full of glass seems too inviting.
That said many stores have big glass windows and their best goods out front. But on the other hand, other stores also have security doors that enclose everything when it’s closed. I might be being too paranoid, but the same concern applies to even locking your door. A locked door only keeps the honest folks out is what they say, so should we do away with locks completely? Obviously people find some utility in them despite their inherent weaknesses.
The company I work (manufacturing) has facilities in not-so-nice areas. We have had break-ins that used sawzalls or other large power tools to remove the entire door frame of steel doors (set in concrete walls).
If someone wants in, they're getting in.
All the break-ins failed to get anything of value, however... everything gets put away, there are cameras, and we are VERY friendly with people living in the area (imcluding employing as many locals as we can).
Of all the "security" measures, people living in the area were the best defense. We take care of them, they take care of us.
Did you use a set of plans specifically for the A-frame studio house, or was it an amalgamation of a bunch of different resources? I'd love more resources on it if you have a suggestion.
I would love to be able to suggest something, but I think I just made up the design from my own head. I had a rough plan, and I made the rest up as I went along.
If you send me an email (see my profile -> website) I can share with you the construction photos.
Sounds like you do not have the building inspection hell of many places.
Local governments often insist that every aspect of the build is documented before you start (which is unachievable) and any deviations from the plan require stopping work and re-documenting at vast expense in professional fees and charges from the state.
We tend to be quite building inspection heavy over here in the UK but I gather if you work with people who know the system well, you can get off-grid style buildings built. Hopefully this is quite a useful example that featured on two episodes of Grand Designs.
The UK (and Ireland) both make it default-illegal to build things and then you have to beg a bunch of church elders on the council to let you build your house, and they'll decide if it's pretty enough, but there is _one_ cool thing the UK is doing - http://www.oneplanetcouncil.org.uk/ - making it easier to do off-grid living in Wales.
So the floor heat system is somewhat unusual. Details are:
- The house is 5x7m. The heated area is about 2.5x7m
- There is no concrete base. The system [1] I used was designed to receive concrete, but I decided against it.
- The floor heats up in about 30 minutes, but the water temperature is substantially higher than normal (because lack of thermal conductivity due to lack of concrete)
- The flooring is large plywood sheets[2]. Surface temperature is variable, 23-26deg.
- The heating is provided by a wood-burning 'bailarina' [3] [4] [5]
- There is no heat exchanger. The hot water that goes under the floor is the same as the hot water that comes out the tap. Not drinking the hot water is kinda normal for europeans though. The pipes may clog up with sediment in 5-10 years, but they are not concreted in so I'm not too bothered.
It may seem like there are some odd choices there. My priority was simplicity and being able to easily change things in the future.
Edit: clarity
Edit 2: If I was to do it again with more time and patience, I would pour in sand. It has about the same thermal properties of concrete, and is way less permanent.
>>> Edit 2: If I was to do it again with more time and patience, I would pour in sand. It has about the same thermal properties of concrete, and is way less permanent.
I did something similar when building a fence. The "proper" way to set the posts was in concrete, but I calculated how many bags I'd need, relative to my own strength and patience. Instead, I poured sand in, got it wet, and shook it to make it settle. The fence has held up for almost 20 years. The last few posts I ran out of sand and used dirt. They've held up just fine too.
Hey! Well I think it took me about 3 months ish to build, but it was spread out over about a year so it is hard to say for sure. And I’m a software developer so I don’t think my day rate would be a fair way to do the calculation. But I’ll ballpark a builder at around €70/day around here, so 3 * 22 * 70, so around €5k for labour?
But this style of construction is pretty unusual for the region, so you may need someone more specialist. If you need someone let me know though, I can think of a couple of companies.
I can give you more details over email.
The things I think I really got right are: 1) build from new, don’t renovate. And 2) build the whole structure on a platform off the ground. The entire building is supported on 6 steel legs.
Also, solar power + AC is fantastic. A bit of thermal bridging doesn’t seem to matter so much in 40 degree weather when the AC is solar powered :-)
Which area of portugal is this? I was looking to do exactly the same. Buy a cheap land and build a small house myself. I am just wary or property tax, bureaucracy and construction costs. Would love to read blogpost about your experience on this
I'm in Central Portugal. It is the Gardunha region (known for its cherry growing). Between Fundao, Castelo Branco, and Penamacor.
I don't think property tax is a big deal. Bureaucracy is a PITA, but accountants, lawyers, and architects are cheap. Use them and it'll all be easier, and likely cheaper in the long run.
Construction costs are going up around here. The price I heard 4 years ago was €500-€750/m2 of house construction minimum.
Land should cost around €1/m2, although it will be more if it has a habitable house or is being sold as 'you can build a house here' plot. I got planning permission (via an architect) to build a 300m2 house on an agricultural-only plot of land, although I didn't go through with it. Rules vary by region, but around here you can fairly easily get planning permission if you own more than 2ha of land.
Get in touch if you want to talk more! Email is on my website. (asking questions here is also great)
Hi! I love the ideia of an off-grid house. If you didn't get that permit for urban land ("you can build a house here") then the whole thing has no sanitation, electricity or water connected to the main supply right? And are we still allowed to place a building, even in those conditions, in an agricultural land?
Amazing thank you so much for the details! I was looking anywhere nearby the sea I am sure it will be more expensive than countryside but still doable. Do you have recommended Portuguese site to search for land/property? Thank you again! I will reach out via email
Hehe, no. There is no-one to see in. It is because I made a miscalculation in the house design. I was hoping that the awning would prevent the worst of the summer sun from hitting the windows, but it did not. So I got some custom canvas made up which I can use to keep the sun out. [1]
Our large west facing windows get way too hot so we had this 3M film installed that essentially tints the windows and blocks UV. I’m a HUGE fan of it — in many ways it actually improved the view out the window by reducing glare.
It is a fair point on climate change. I'm not really an expert on this, but I'll make some various points...
I think winters have become drier, but April can be absolutely torrential.
The specific location can also make a difference. I'm near the base of a mountain which I believe can prop-up the underground water table nicely, and can certainly cause more rain.
I think Portugal being costal also helps with rainfall, certainly compared to the plains of Spain further East.
Try and get some data for the last decade or two. That will probably be more useful than any local anecdotes. But local terrain/micro-climates will make a difference.
It does not, but it has only been about 8 months. Break-even is in sight though. Then I can decide if I want to just let it bring in some money, of it I want to 'Bezos' it and expand coverage instead.
Sure! I saw startyourownisp.com on HN years ago, and once I moved here I remembered that starting an ISP was actually a thing. I started a wireless ISP (WISP). The rough process is:
- Find the customers*
- Find somewhere to broadcast from*
- Find a wholesale fibre provider*
- Register with your country's regulator & read a bunch of laws
- While you are doing the above, learn about networking. Get this right before you launch, then forgot about it. Post-launch all problems will (hopefully) be non-tech related.
And also lots of good old-fashioned business cash-flow spreadsheets.
I really like enjoy it (even though it can be stressful) because:
- I like geekery
- I like business (even thought it can be stressful)
- I like being in nature, and this one of the few lines of work that combines the OSI model & chainsaws.
- I like having a reason to meet people in my area. Great way to make friends.
- This area really needs it. There is fibre in the villages, but lots of people live & work on remote patches of land. The service I provide really makes a difference to their lives.
It don't think it'll necessarily make you rich, but it may give you a meaningful livelihood if you have the market for such a service.
* You kinda need to do these three simultaneously, because they all need to be in the same location. At some point I just had to commit to one of the three and hope that everything else fell into place.
Thank you so much! Another question if you don't mind - how difficult was the bureaucratic aspect? Registering with regulator etc... what would you consider the biggest hurdle?
Well this is going to vary hugely by country. I think that got easier in Portugal from 2017, so I was a little lucky in that regard. I think it is also fairly straight-forward in the UK/US too. We had to pay a €700 one-off fee, and we need to fill in a report (i.e. spreadsheet) once per quarter with our total customers (and various other bits).
We also need to log netflow data due to the EU counter terrorism directive, and keep it securely. Last I heard it had been deemed unconstitutional by the EU courts, but the law had yet to be revoked.
The hardest part BY FAR, was getting the fibre connection. My advice for this is to do your research to find the available providers in you area/country. There is no fibre map for Portugal, so this was tricky. Reach out to actual people and ask for contacts at telecoms companies in your country. You are looking for Direct Internet Access (DIA). This comment of mine is a bit relevant [1]
The WISP facebook groups [2] [3] really helped me with this, and in figuring out what I need to go and learn about. Don't let those groups stress you out though. I've un-followed them now.
Data rétention directive, France does not want to obey the CJEU ruling because of 'national security' jocker card. And they make fuss about Poland not respecting EU law.
this is obviously awesome, I just want to ask you if you see the idea of a 50-year-old tractor harmonizing with the idea of an ultra modern sustainable home and energy source?
TBH, sustainability is a byproduct rather than the goal.
Plus, the tractor is definitely an occasional use tool. Now I think about it, I suspect a modern new tractor would take a very long time to pay off its embedded energy with the level of use it would see here.
And my old tractor cost €3k. A new one would cost €30-60k. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've built an A-frame studio house for around €10k (excl tools), and installed a 5kw solar system for about another €10k. The house has air conditioning and underfloor heating (water-based, heated using wood from the land).
I've also brought a 50-year-old tractor and started a rural ISP.
AMA, I guess?
House: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sx8hj9s4u7n6ef9/My%20house.jpg?dl=...
ISP: https://gardunha.net/en/
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Just to add some thoughts that the questions below prompted.
I've realised that I really enjoy infrastructure projects. I get to be sat in my little house and phone up huge telecommunication companies and ask for things. Our provider lit up 250km of fibre to our local single-track train station. I get to do lots of stuff where I think, "errr.... am I allowed to do this?", and I love it.
The large providers are skeptical at first, but once they realise you are registered with the national telecoms regulator they realise that you're actually serious and get onboard. They were bemused, but they went with it. I think they actually found it nice to work with a mom-and-pop organisation for a change.