Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is.
COVID unfortunately brought domestic violence rates up, but I wouldn't lump that in with the generality of "relationship market", it's a more serious & specific issue.
edit: Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family"
Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hinging on that.
Anecdata: the males I've personally seem "opting out" have major personal issues and are honestly dangerous to any potential partners, mentally and physically. I don't feel much for them except for wishing the U.S. had better and more affordable healthcare so they could get some mental healthcare. But once again - anecdata - these also aren't the types to seek mental healthcare. Oh well.
> Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family"
> Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hinging on that.
Genuine question, why does it sound like you find me advocating for a 2 parent household almost offensive? Is it because you don't believe any of the data about kids raised in 2 parent households is valid? From my perspective, I genuinely don't understand your reaction here at all because I thought this was a generally accepted fact in psychology/sociology.
I'm just asking out of curiosity for your perspective, I promise I'm not baiting you into a debate :)
I've made zero reference or statement to "2 parent household"
Only the term nuclear family.
In any case, "nuclear family" dates to around one century at most, in essentially a singular country.
I'd much rather look to the notion of "it takes a village" and extended family concepts that have existed for millennia and overwhelmingly brought us to where we are now.
Fair enough, thanks for expanding and that makes sense. I agree ideally we would have more people beyond just the 2 parents around to lean on to help raise kids. Preferably the 2 parents (where possible, not advocating you stick with an abusive partner) plus extended family nearby at the very least. I like the multigenerational lifestyle too.
> Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is.
What makes you say this? Last I heard the trend of it getting harder and harder for men has been continuing. When one side has to go crazy going to the gym and making themselves interesting and whatever to stand out while the other side just has to put one blurry picture with no text on any dating site to get inundated with suitors, how can you call that equal?
I think the primary issue with the hetero 'relationship market' these days, is that it's not really a 'relationship' market if you mean stable relationships. People aren't really looking for stable long term relationships as much. Women are much more open to the idea of having a baby outside of marriage and also intentionally being a single mother than they were in the past.
Because women don't really have to settle for 1 man anymore (less stigma nowadays about being single into your 30s/single mother), it becomes more of a hookup market, and naturally women will always have more leverage when it comes to the hookup market due to men's natural higher levels of horniness/willingness to hookup with a wider variety of women than vice versa. If it was a relationship market where everyone has to eventually choose 1 person to settle with like in the past, women wouldn't have as much leverage. You can only have things like '80/20' rule if the market isn't about monogamy (it's not actually 80/20 in reality, but the general dynamic of a minority of men having most of the success with women). Everyone would end up with the same level of success, because everyone would end up with 1 partner if the market was about monogamous stable long term relationships.
My guess would be that online dating is extremely biased in favor of women because men tend to over-value looks while women tend to value things that are harder to communicate at a glance. Which would be why men generally feel ignored and women generally feel like they have tons of really shitty options.
I don't understand the nature of your argument other than it sounds like you may have some deep seated insecurities or shortcomings, true or imaginary.
If you'd really like to talk about "what's been heard" though, the last I heard the trend was going in the opposite direction of not wanting men who go crazy to the gym, because they tend to be egoistical narcissists.
Note: I go crazy to the gym, but solely because I have a rare connective tissue disorder and my body would otherwise fall apart. Well, it still does - just slightly less with the gym religion.
Double note: I can anecdotally attest to a decent amount of fellow male gym patrons being egoistical narcissists. I have also met a fair amount of females who fit the same description though. But, also plenty of people who just want to stay fit for various normal reasons.
HN being tech oriented, thus male commenters tend to live in gender skewed cities. Bay Area, Seattle, etc for the 25-45 age range. Where yes some men might have harder time.
But really there are approximately same amount of men to women in the dating/family making age group.
Being normal, mildly interesting, and not a slob is all most men will have to do to find women to date.
The reason a some men don't get dates on dating apps, is they send the dumbest of messages. Putting out zero effort and expecting something is rarely going to yield results.
It might just be an artefact of dating sites/apps, but I think that GP takes that into account with the supposition (I don't know if it is/can be shown with hard data) that women on such sites don't even have to be particularly normal, or mildly interesting.
It's also a bit of a catch-22. Say you want to become 'mildly interesting' (for the purposes of dating). So you quit video games after work, and you join some club activities. The activities don't really interest you, but at least you're "working on yourself" to become more interesting. You burn out because it's hard to magically find interest in something you just don't care for.
Personally, I don't mind guys whose interests are gaming or some generally solitary (generally male) activity like programming. But I don't think that's the case for the majority of women, though.
Say a guy gets fed up with dating apps/sites. "Get out there!" and "Just be yourself!" people will tell him. Again, he joins activities that have a fairer balance of men and women to the activities he's usually interested in (video game events, chess clubs, hackathons). Think yoga classes, fiction book clubs, gym activity groups.
Again, he has to force himself to enjoy the activity, and simultaneously never let it slip that actually he's there to improve his chances of finding a date (nor can he risk hitting on anyone, lest word gets out).
For what it's worth, I have several male friends who custom-tailor polite messages for each person they're interested in, mentioning what they read in the bio field, and never get responses.
> Putting out zero effort and expecting something is rarely going to yield results.
The comment you are replying to says that men have to put in a lot more effort than women, and you reply with a strawman about men not putting in any effort. Nice.
> Anecdata: the males I've personally seem "opting out" have major personal issues and are honestly dangerous to any potential partners, mentally and physically.
Doesn't matter, if too many males opt out females would either have to be alone or compete for the remaining males. Competition would certainly result in changes in male behaviour (because they won't be competing for a mate).
This is a vicious cycle which would result in more males having "major personal issues".
>if too many males opt out females would either have to be alone or compete for the remaining males.
I don't know what's shaped your worldview, but this really isn't how things work, at all.
>This is a vicious cycle which would result in more males having "major personal issues".
Oh well. With the current trajectory of tech, we'll soon be able to identify these types from whatever tech they use and send out a robo-taxi to take them to their government mandated treatment facility :P
COVID unfortunately brought domestic violence rates up, but I wouldn't lump that in with the generality of "relationship market", it's a more serious & specific issue.
edit: Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family"
Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hinging on that.
Anecdata: the males I've personally seem "opting out" have major personal issues and are honestly dangerous to any potential partners, mentally and physically. I don't feel much for them except for wishing the U.S. had better and more affordable healthcare so they could get some mental healthcare. But once again - anecdata - these also aren't the types to seek mental healthcare. Oh well.