I'm going to be the contrarian. Keep the job. Power through it and retire as early as you can, then you can do whatever you want. If you're in $finance$ or $FAANG$, don't go to a non-FAANG. Definitely don't quit your job unless you have another one lined up, and definitely don't take an extended leave to travel and find yourself. Don't believe "CS grads will always be employed." There are people on HN who graduated in 2010 and have worked a decade without experiencing trying to stay employed in a bear market. It can and will happen again, and suddenly having savings is going to be super important. Work is not supposed to be roses and sunshine. That's why it's called Work and not Fun Hobby.
Remember, the goal is to not have to work. Then, you can do whatever fun thing you want, even a fun job!
I wish I would have had a quant finance salary and aggressive savings plan in my 30s. I might be retired already if I did. Instead I kind of flitted around doing "fun" jobs and didn't get serious about retiring until I hit 40. Don't be me.
What you don't understand is that if you hate life, and perhaps if you have money and comforts that you know should help... but you still are miserable, it feels hopeless.
The money traps you. It's so hard to imagine taking a huge pay cut. But that pay cut, and living life the way you want, is more important.
Hating most of your hours each day until you're 45 or 50 and then retiring will leave you such a different and sad person that retirement won't be joyful.
The problem with a human life is that we can only know intimately what we experience. It's so difficult to really know how the other choices would have been (for us). I'm probably not in the financial situation as the quant, but I know the feeling. If I could tell the college me advice, it would have been to do the music degree instead of compsci.
My family has all worked very hard until retirement, and then the lack of income made them hyper sensitive to spending anything. "Never spend your capital; live off the interest." So you die with a few million in the bank. Now you don't want to spend your last 10 or 20 years poor and hungry, but there must be a middle ground.
The other issue with trying to power through the job whilst absolutely hating it, is that your performance suffers and you end up getting fired. The turnover rate in quant finance is extremely high and it's not just because people voluntarily quit.
Not to sound harsh - but its a trade off...You seem to want the money and the job satisfaction/community/work-life balance... Its incredibly hard to get it all. Pick the ones that are most important to you, and let the others sort themselves out.
Sounds like you're only going to make another year or two at you're current job before you're totally fried. So perhaps start looking for new stuff now, and start socking away extra cash in case you want to retire.
P.S. The turnover rate in programming in general is very high. I was surprised the 'average' programmer changes careers after 10 (5?) years. Burnout is real everywhere.
bad form replying to myself, but this just occurred to me..
Given you sound fairly young, what about powering thru say 3 years with your partner to build a nest egg. Then both taking (perhaps lower paying) jobs that you enjoy, giving your nest egg time to grow - that way, you'd have the satisfaction of doing something you enjoy, and the option to retire whenever...
I guess that’s what’s subconsciously been my plan for the last while. It’s just that on the rare occasions I’m with extended family and I’m reminded of what’s truly important in life, it brings my unhappiness to the fore again, and I resolve to try and do something about it.
What is wrong is that people have unrealistic expectations towards their jobs (and, more general, their lives). These expectations are making them unhappy and depressed.
Just as one block of 8 hour sleep is not what many humans are programmed for, one block of 9 hours in an office is often not what some humans are programmed for. But in both cases, that's what society has ended up adopting.
There's a lot of research and information about the difficulty night owls and people with > 24hr body clocks face. I suspect there's some research about how some people are more cut out for bursts of work rather than a large contiguous block of attention (and I'm not just talking about ADHD people - which itself is a convenient but unreasonable box to categorize with).
No, I believe the issue with post-vacation depression is that like a sponge, people expand back to something resembling who they are or could be while they are away from work. But when they go back to work, they are squeezed into the cube. The feeling is dramatic and unnatural. Or maybe they are suddenly in the cubicle next to the marketing guy (not hating on marketing, per se) who likes to take his calls on speakerphone all day while they are trying to build mental models and do deep thinking.
I have after many years identified my pattern of experience. Each job starts with promise, turns into a grind with too many limitations, and ends with me hating my 9 hour block - even if I like my colleagues - and ultimately finding a new job or taking a freelance period.
But sure, if you have impossible expectations - such as any lifestyle resembling what the typical middle class American had in the 1950s - then you will certainly be set for disappointment.
Yeah, I hear ya. But maybe having made a decision and some concrete plans will make you feel a bit better?
Also, maybe doing more things outside of work will help? Try to talk with family more often or spend more time on hobbies you enjoy?
The key is not to let the job define your life. When all is said and done, work is only one (small) part of your life. Give yourself something to look forward to at the end of the day.
Whatever you do, I hope it brings you joy :-D
Good Luck!
But if you want the money and want to retire early...that's the price you pay unless you're very lucky. Given the salaries O.P. and partner seem to be making, they could prolly power thru and retire in 5 years? 10 years tops ?
Also, if retiring at 45 or 50 leaves you 'sad', I'd question your assumptions about retirement? Working for 25 years, and having another 50+ years of retirement ahead of you makes you sad?
P.S. I don't do the "perpetual interest" thing..Even if you're very optimistic, 110 years should be plenty. I have mine based around 75-80. You'd be surprised how much that lowers what you 'need' to retire..
You truly don't, if you think money has any intrinsic worth rather than how you choose to live your life.
Let's say you sacrifice 10-15 years with a life miserable, but very fulfilling regards to money. How does that shape you as a person, and how will that shape your life after retiring early, rather than living another life, not ruled by currency?
Some of us have already chosen differently, and have no problems regarding life's choices now, with or without Covid. That self-integrity and intuition just can't be bought with money.
For others, there may be no choice. But then the question would never arise..
that sounds very nice and all, but unless you're independently wealthy or someone else is supporting you, you're making the same trade off as everyone else. You've just opted to take a long slow path vs others that just want to get it over with. Your still going to need some baseline amount of money to survive, whether you make it 'all at once' or slowly over the rest of your life. And as long as you're working, your going to have some percentage of bad days, days you don't want to be there, etc. Its the same formula, only the parameters have changed.
Also, if being miserable at work 'shapes you as a person' or has a substantial impact on your 'self-integrity' it sounds like you're the one defining yourself via work? More outside activities might help? You have to be able to leave work behind at the end of the day...
I grew up in a mill town with a large part of the population hating what they did..but they did it every day for 20 or 30 years to take care of their families. For most, being miserable at work wasn't the defining facet of their lives. They had hobbies, coached little league, and did a million other things. While it was far from perfect, most of the people I knew didn't 'let the job get to them'.
As for the choices you made - good for you :-) Glad you found a set of parameters that works for you! :-D
Agreed. I do think you have to work for your future self and sacrifice some time and happiness for a stable income. But not to the extent that you can't enjoy your current life.
I think that OP should look for another job that he might not love, but will hate less.
Music, both listening and performing, has been one of the few things in life that really fills me with joy and gives me the strongest (positive) emotions.
If I had gotten a music degree, I could have probably been a decent composer and a better instrumentalist; so I might have been able to make a living. Or at least I probably wouldn't have gotten enough early higher paying jobs that I trapped myself in that money cycle.
I don’t know what your partner/family situation is - I feel like I could easily wind down my spending and comfort level, but I don’t want to put my partner through that. I think in most cases this is the constraining factor
That is and has been one of my best excuses (and a pretty valid one, especially when children are involved).
Now this is rather extreme in comparison, but some young families with children live a bit of the slow-nomad life, on a minimal budget. It's difficult to know if that would be overall good or negative for them and the kids, but I kind of suspect it would make for better young humans. I imagine it would mean a lot less prejudice and intolerane of others if you grew up being exposed to many different cultures.
There's definitely an argument for making hay while the sun shines. But retiring early exposes you more to future bear markets since the value/returns of your investment portfolio will go down. Being employed seems a lot more resilient in that case.
Being employed or running a business (or being in school, in a sports team etc.) also means you're part of the general actively synchronised life. Might sound fuzzy but it boils down to being in touch with society around you. Then again, there is plenty of society all over the world where that means working strange hours, strange jobs, or not at all.
Everyone needs a way to plug in to the world around them. It doesn’t have to be a full time job or even a job at all. But this is something everyone needs.
Indeed. There are many ways to have that (some people want to be part of a group or club, some people want to be around but mostly just as a passive observer, some people want to consume, some want to produce), it's just a matter of finding out what works.
In tech I'm seeing more combinations of low-hour steady jobs, combined with passion projects, entrepreneurial things, being in/around nature, teaching things to other people, and also very 'low complexity' stuff like running a few shifts at a non-chain espresso bar, just for the change of scenery while still being connected and active. Heck, I've had someone do that, enjoy it a ton and then flip around (owns an espresso bar, does some DevOps engineering on the side, both working out great even in the pandemic).
It's mostly that attempting to peak for the sake of peaking or retiring for the sake of retiring usually ends up rather disconnected and hollow. Perhaps it's some sort of genetic thirst for tribalism.
What you've said is correct but if you take what you've said and apply it to the point of retirement it gets a bit depressing since you do indeed lose all those things. People have a lot of trouble accepting retirement because of that loss of routine and of connection.
So what's the best outcome? My point of view is that the answer is to find something right now that provides that connection to society without causing you harm in other aspects. So it's an argument for quitting.
The original poster in this thread says to push through pain now to early retirement. But lets think about that. You'd be working your ass off now merely to hit the issues of a loss of routine and connection later in life.
Instead find something now that you wouldn't mind doing past retirement age and you'll never have those issues.
Yep, and having something to do is sometimes all you need to keep "plugged in". It doesn't even need to be a job or a money maker. That said, when (commercial) value is created, it's usually a good idea to make sure that value isn't given away for free (but it doesn't have to be top-tier pricing either). Besides income, money is also a signal and a valuation method for the parties involved.
It’s not an either/or. Having a good nest egg gives you the option of working less or working on something more fulfilling (that still generates income)
That is true. But following some 'masterplan' that involves "Get a PhD, get a crappy bonus-oriented job that you hate in a place that you hate, quit everything to retire" is just another variation on the other general flows ("go to school, get a job, find love, get kids, get a house, get the kids to go to school, become a grandparent"). None of those are going to suddenly 'buy' you happiness. It also doesn't mean going 'against the flow' or 'doing the opposite' is therefore 'better', it's just that there is no guaranteed plan that makes life meaningful and nice.
If you are following some common flow and it turns out you're not happy doing that, try and modify instead of 'keeping your head down and powering through' or some nonsense like that. Especially if you have options.
> There's definitely an argument for making hay while the sun shines.
Forgot that phrase, but that's exactly what I'm getting at. Also, make that hay in the morning. Because of compounding interest/returns, dollars (or pounds) that you save in your 20s are far, FAR more valuable than dollars you save in your 30s which are more valuable than dollars you save in your 40s. The advice you sometimes hear to go traveling and backpacking in your early 20s to self-discover is total financial lunacy. Every month you don't earn money in your early 20s probably results in extending retirement six or more months.
You can have other goals apart from increasing the balance of your investment portfolio or retiring early. It's not all about optimising this one aspect of your life.
It's a real shame that spending your youth fixated on money and a nebulous future retirement doesn't have a price tag attached to it.
You can calculate the opportunity cost of a dollar spent vs a dollar invested, but you cannot so easily calculate the cost of squandering a chance to have a memorable experience while you're still young and unencumbered.
> you cannot so easily calculate the cost of squandering a chance to have a memorable experience while you're still young and unencumbered.
Do people who do the whole "frontload a big hedonistic experience before you start working/living as an adult" actually end up with memorable experiences that often?
It's def good to sprinkle in a few periods or jaunts where you go out there and have a good time. Go for a Euro-trip with some bar crawls, go through a techno rave phase, etc.
Otherwise I'm pretty sure 80%+ of those who don't do it end up being squares in their 30's married to some girl who missed out.
I do know that maybe 20% of people aren't really in to the big party hedonism thing, and that's fine.
> The advice you sometimes hear to go traveling and backpacking in your early 20s to self-discover is total financial lunacy.
And life isn't only about min-maxing your financial situation at all times. Playing this game leads to a pretty bitter life, some are fit for it and thrive by squandering every cent they can during their younger years, others will simply be miserable.
Financial lunacy or not I don't believe that your life should be completely dictated by maximising your financial prospects when you are 40 or 50, each decade is a completely different life you live and missing out on your 20s while you are at your healthiest and less tired self is a personal development lunacy.
When you retire you aren't young and dumb anymore, you won't have the same experiences, you won't meet the same people, you will just coast into your later years. Might be successful by the metrics of the rat race but are you, as a person, really much better if you didn't experience much just to save money for later?
Everything is a trade-off, min-maxing your retirement funds on expense of your life experiences is just another option, financial lunacy or not, I'd love for more humans to not have to be trapped into lives based on what's financially sound or not.
This isn't so much every month not earning money but every month not putting money into a retirement account/savings. If you make a bunch of money in your 20s and don't adequately do these things (like, work for a startup that has no 401k and you don't open up and contribute to a Roth IRA to make up for it, for example), then it's not much different than going backpacking through your 20s.
3% withdrawal rate has a ton of cushion built in, surviving all historic scenarios including the Great Depression. If we do experience something worse than the Great Depression, it’s not a particularly safe assumption that your job would still exist either, but having whatever was left of your savings would put you in a better spot than most to forge a new life in this new post-apocalyptic world.
"I'm going to be the contrarian. Keep the job. Power through it and retire as early as you can, then you can do whatever you want"
No you cannot, as your youth is limited and your health maybe already ruined by then. If you do something you hate for a living, then once you stop there might be only drugs or other addictions left to fill the void.
There is just no magic way out. You complain now, that you had fun earlier but now cannot retire. But your other self, that you would have liked to grinded away day by day, might have be already dead, or in heart surgery.
It is all about finding the balance, and OP got to sort it out on her or him self.
But I very much do recommend traveling in general, while young. Remote is now thing. There are lots of nice places with awesome people all around the world.
But you will never get there, if you are clinging on "security".
Remember, the goal is to not have to work. Then, you can do whatever fun thing you want, even a fun job!
I wish I would have had a quant finance salary and aggressive savings plan in my 30s. I might be retired already if I did. Instead I kind of flitted around doing "fun" jobs and didn't get serious about retiring until I hit 40. Don't be me.