Well, lets agree to disagree. Maybe I am a dum*bass and too dumb to realize it. Ho well.. C'est la vie

"Agree to disagree" is a polite way of saying "you're wrong."

Are you incapable of substantiating your position?

Yes, you are right. I'm politely telling you that I respect your opinion but I disagree.

>>Are you incapable of substantiating your position?

The thing is that a lot of the arguments we are making are just our own opinions and hence anecdotal. Really what we need here is scientific research measuring what difference does the programming language make when working on coding projects

A couple of examples that I've worked on are the following:

A Java to Objective-C transcoder

C to Java transcoder

Physics Engine

Collision Engine

Symbolic Math Engine

Game Engine (includes the Physics Engine and Collision Engine along with the rendering and animation code)

And some things I'm currently working on:

Java to C++ transcoder

Java to JavaScript transcoder

What I've noticed is that the coding takes very little time, the figuring out part, the design, architecture, debugging, that takes most of the time.

I'm not really sure whether one of the most modern languages would really make much of a difference if at all. I believe it won't really make much of a difference. Coding is the easy part.

Use the language that makes you comfortable, definitely.

Now, tools are a different story. I would hate to have to code in a simple text editor. IDEs make my life extremely easy and actually make me a faster coder. I love the Eclipse IDE. XCode would be my second choice and Visual Studio 3rd.

Upvoted for "coding takes very little time" ! Most often, you are making 100s of small but significant decisions of algorithms, runtimes, libraries, memory footprints etc that the actual coding part ends up being the less significant aspect.

Also, I really admire the polite but confident way you responded to eropple's borderline trolling. Good show !

I think you're misunderstanding the point here. It is perfectly possible to write awesome software in Java. With the amount of software out there, it would be completely insane for anyone to say that you can't do awesome things in Java.

> You should stand up, be confident, and realize that it is the programmer that creates awesome software. Not the language.

This highlights the misunderstanding. You're right. We should be spending our time making awesome software, not typing letters and building boilerplate code.

Full disclosure: I work with eropple on a fairly regular basis, I favor C#, I write C++ at my day job. I spent a few months doing Java, was able to do what I wanted to with it, but missed a lot of features from more featureful languages.

There is more to awesome software than typing.

(Note this point stands compatible with the entirely orthogonal point about expressiveness and concision of a language.)

For me (at least due to client demands ..) awesome software, in part, posits the requirement of economically maintainable artifact.

PG's writings on Blub languages is imo addressed to a narrow audience of readers as it does not in anyway address maintenance and extensions to systems by non-elite development teams. Even elite teams, if tasked with delivery of products to non-elite consumers, must factor in the economic equation of the cost proposal.

To wit:

Having a bench of solid OCaml/Scala developers is a viable economic proposition for Wall Street and rich hedge funds; starry start-ups; and possibly elite teams in major media; a hacker community project. It is insanely difficult enough to find competent help in Blub-land, much less competent Scala programmers.

And, of course, the majority of software is developed/internally-consumed precisely by shops that must staff from blub-land. And surely you are aware that a big chunk of "programmers" out there are just recent graduates of some web-app vocational CS education.

Software language economy is not simply about lines of code. The economic cost equation of a language is definitely a critical factor if positioned as a general use language.

Java is unsurpassed in terms of the balance it brings to the economic equation: it is effectively powerful enough to allow serious developers to create "awesome" software, and approachable enough for blubland coders to crank out (yes) meh code that gets the (business) job done.

This fact was recognized by all entities chasing development dollars out there, including IBM, Oracle, and in its own cute way, via Google (Android).

Tell me: why isn't Android dev done with Scala or Clojure? My answer: Because Google management is not stupid.

I'm embarrassed for both of you. Will you please stop baiting one another?

I think an example is in order. I'm going to code up a simple event dispatching algorithm in three languages. They'll have the same functionality. I consider myself fluent in all three, and I'll write them in the most consise and style-respecting way I can.

C++:

    #include <vector>
    #include <string>
    #include <iostream>
    typedef void (*hndlr)(std::string);

    class Event {
      private:
        std::vector<hndlr> handlers;
      public:
        void Listen(hndlr handler) {
          handlers.push_back(handler);
        }
        void trigger(string arg) {
          for (std::vector<hndlr>::iterator i = handlers.begin(); 
              i != handlers.end(); i++) {
            (*i)(arg);
          }
        }
    };
    
    void h1(std::string arg) { 
      std::cout << "First handler got " << arg << std::endl;
    }
    void h2(std::string arg) { 
      std::cout << "Second handler got " << arg << std::endl;
    }
    
    void main() {
      Event event;
      event.Listen(h1);
      event.Listen(h2);
      event.Trigger("something happened!");
    }

Lua:

    event = {listeners = {}}

    function event.listen(self, handler) 
      if (type(handler) ~= "function") return end
      table.insert(self.listeners, handler) 
    end
    
    function event.trigger(self, arg) 
      for handler in self.listeners do handler(arg) end
    end
    
    event:listen(function(text) print("First handler got "..text) end)
    event:listen(function(text) print("Second handler got "..text) end)
    event:trigger("something happened!")
    

C#:

    using System;
    public delegate void HandlerDelegate(string arg);

    class Main {
      static event HandlerDelegate Event;
      static void Main() {
        Event += (arg) => { Console.WriteLine("First handler got" + arg); };
        Event += (arg) => { Console.WriteLine("Second handler got" + arg); };
        Event("something happened!");
      }
    }
    
    

Now, go ahead and say that choice of language doesn't matter. You might not need lambdas, or first-class functions, or event handlers, and a good programmer can make the same algorithm "work" in any language. But by choosing a more powerful and expressive language, you can get those algorithms done in a way that's more readable, maintainable, and faster to code, which in the end is what really matters.

Also fun: The only one of these that works when a callback removes itself from the event list in its own callback routine is C#. You get a hanging iterator in C++, and removing items from a table mid-iteration in Lua is undefined (though in practice usually works).

To make this case work properly, the place I work for has a 335 line C++ template class. This is all time that the developer could have spent actually building our product.

The C++ version could be greatly simplified by using boost::bind. It'd still be shorter and clearer than a Java equivalent that had to bung in anonymous classes and other crap to create a proper dispatch.

Your point, however, totally stands.

You don't seem to understand something that I guess I feel is rather basic: I don't have a "favorite" language. I have tools that are expressive and thus more useful because I spend more time in the problem space than I do in the language space. I also have Java.

Objects are a powerful concept because they allow a programmer to more easily map a problem to the available solution space. This is good. Java, however, fails to take the next step to enable even better mapping of a problem by creating a more flexible solution space. The other languages cited in this thread do create that more flexible solution space, and thus make getting a job done more easily and more cleanly a viable possibility.

.

A good programmer can make good stuff in any language. You are correct about this. Where you are wrong is in your inability to understand that a good programmer can make good stuff quicker and more easily in an environment that minimizes the distance between the problem and solution set.

But I rather get the impression that you don't know enough about what exists outside of your "box" to be as authoritative as you'd like to sound. You seem fundamentally uninterested in understanding the benefits that these constructs, and these simplified syntaxes (note: these are two separate points, but you seem to miss them both) provide to a developer. I don't think there's a lot of value in continuing this with you. Unless you bring forward salient points instead of petulant defenses based on fundamental ignorance, I won't reply to you again.

You ignorance is so painful embarrassing, it almost hurts to read your non-sense.