Restaurant work sucks, it's not tipping's fault. I don't work nearly as hard as a software developer compared to when I was a waiter or cook. Software development is lower stress most of the time too.
I knew someone who was mad at their partner because their partner was a software engineer and "didn't work as hard as they do" at a lower skill job, and yet made a lot more money.
I'm not sure where this idea comes from that hard work is as valuable/more valuable than skilled work. But it seems to be a pervasive idea.
Skilled work is not the antonym of hard work. You can work hard doing skilled work.
Knowledge work does look different from physical work, but you can work hard at both; you need to work hard at either to be successful.
As for why hard physical work is so valued - only a century or two past, it was the only practical method to prevent the starvation for yourself and your family. Knowledge work being a viable means of survival (for non-nobles) is pretty new, all things considered.
Even my own parents never really understood how knowledge work could be as valuable as getting out and working with your hands; and they were born in the early/mid 1900's.
> Knowledge work does look different from physical work, but you can work hard at both; you need to work hard at either to be successful.
Classist wage disparity is a real problem in America today. Often knowledge workers who don't work hard earn more than physical workers who do work hard.
> knowledge workers who don't work hard earn more than physical workers who do work hard.
earnings are measured with productivity, and knowledge work has more scaling to their productivity output. You can dig holes really hard, but a hole dug is a hole dug. A line of code written is not just a line of code, as power of compounding output stacks on top of each other.
True, hard work and skilled work are not opposites, but you can work less hard doing skilled work (it's almost the definition of skilled work), and still have a bigger impact than someone working very hard at unskilled work.
I probably should have used the phrase "unskilled work" in my original post, but I was trying to convey the person's frustrations about "hard work." From an outsiders perspective, a skilled knowledge worker doesn't look like they're working very hard, but we know that's not true.
Some "skilled work" intersects with "hard work". There's a ton of work in the construction industry that requires a very high level of specialized knowledge that sometimes takes years of college and practice in their industry to learn, just for example. Even more reason that it's strange that some people find one type of work somehow inherently superior to the other in generalized terms. I tend to think that the skill and care that one puts behind their craft is maybe what should be more important.
I'm not sure I even agree with that "impact" rhetoric. What do most of us do, deliver ads? Host funny pictures? Move electronic money around? Running shops so people on minimum wage can buy products they don't need, packed and delivered by other people on minimum wage?
Those people are only serving us the food we need to live.
There are different hards. I've worked construction: you come home at night tired, but your brain is awake and ready to think (which is why so many veg on the couch - it keeps the brain busy and body resting). In software the hard jobs leave your brain tired, but your body is ready to go - this is a hard place to be in as your brain can't figure out how to get the needed exercise your body wants.
Programming can be copy/paste, but the hard days when you have to figure out how to eliminate some mutex across some threads so the whole performs without a race condition - that will always be hard.
You're equivocating on the meaning of the word "difficulty." It's impossibly difficult for anybody but me to be exactly me, but that doesn't mean it's hard work for me to be me.
I've worked in a factory as a machine operator, and in a company as a programmer, and they're not comparable in either difficulty or compensation.
Anyone can work in a kitchen. It's physically demanding, but the tasks are not that hard and easily picked up without any real education. Sorry that's just the truth. And why we don't have as many programmers as service workers.
I suspect it comes from the “truism” that hard work pays off. It’s understandably frustrating for people when they inevitably realize it’s not as true as we were led to believe. A person can work like a dog their entire life and still be poor.
Skilled work means you're less replaceable.
I've met a lot of assholes in IT who would have been fired if it wasn't for their contribution to the company.
Except the measurement of "skill" that accounts for the income disparity is not so much "lower skill" vs "higher skill" but more "expensive skill" vs "cheap skill". I could spend the same amount of time and effort training in culinary arts and not approach the income I make writing software. That difference isn't "amount of work" or "amount of skill" but just the market price of said skills.
> I knew someone who was mad at their partner because their partner was a software engineer and "didn't work as hard as they do" at a lower skill job, and yet made a lot more money.
Wait until they learn about passive income and proper usage of leverage!
I don't think "hard work" and "skilled work" are useful buckets, there's a lot of overlap.
It really boils down to how much money a business can make from your outputs. A line cook makes the business less money than someone building an AWS service. This is not a law of nature, just the status quo.
I think the difference in leverage between a software eng and a line cook does have a law-of-nature quality to it. Line cook serves dozens a day, software serves minimum 0 and maximum the whole planet a day, and that service could stick around for years without degradation
Skilled, in late antiquity/mediaval times, meant the engineer doing trebuchet, or building ships, or building high quality steel, etc.. et.c.. it was actually hard work.
None of them were things that the ruling class/aristocracy did. They just paid for it (with the levies/taxes they took from their land).
Eventually another higher skilled level arised, as thinkers/scientists became hired by the court of a monarch, or baron.... and being a patron (paying for someone to do poetry, science, etc) was a sign of status.
The skilled workers have always been the middle class. It took the industrial revolution, where they could become rich themselves, and monarchy started becoming irrelevant.
You aren't refuting the class distinction the parent commenter was actually pointing out (serf/peasant class vs merchant/"middle" class). That there exists another distinction between the ruling class and "middle class" in feudal society does not negate the hierarchical relationship between said middle class and the laborer class.
I have spent thousands of hours honing my software craft outside of work/school hours. I guarantee you most folks working those minimum wage jobs are not doing the same in their field. If they were passionate about it (whether front of house or in the kitchen) they would also hone their craft and work their way out of minimum wage.
The problem is that the turnover rate in restaurants is ALREADY very high. Most employees see it as a “stepping stone” while they get their careers on track.
Hi there. I went to a 2 year college, spent hours outside of work reading and working on my craft and was still the highest paid line cook at a multi-million dollar restaurant at a WHOPPING 15 dollars an hour in 2016 in New Jersey.
The industry is terrible. If you didn't work in it, your solutions sound a whole hell of a lot like "bootstraps". I think "there should not be such thing as poverty wages" or "if you can't afford to pay people you can't afford to run your business" are better
> Low wages are the most common reason people cite for leaving food service work. But in one recent survey, more than half of hospitality workers who've quit said no amount of pay would get them to return.
> That's because for many, leaving food service had a lot to do also with its high-stress culture: exhausting work, unreliable hours, no benefits and so many rude customers.
Some folks would say the same thing about software development sucking.
I think it probably depends on which restaurant you work at and on your skill set and ability to thrive in that fast paced environment.
The difference is that software is easier money if you have the knack for that type of work.
But it’s like anything: you have folks who are passionate about cooking but not business savvy. They might be excellent cooks but the potential customers just eat greasy shit and don’t appreciate nuance of vegetables and spices—and so the chefs are at the mercy of substance-less customer demands. How can one be excited about that?
Anyway, I don’t think the folks quitting their jobs fit this category because talented chefs can make a lot more than minimum wage. But it’s still relevant as one must be excited to go to work in the morning.
> I think it probably depends on which restaurant you work at and on your skill set and ability to thrive in that fast paced environment.
Equally true of software development, systems/network administration, etc. It can totally suck, or it can be a source of joy, growth, and profit, all depending on where you're workin' and who for. Some of the best jobs I've had in both industries have been almost like "gettin' paid to play" because the whole crew was doin' stuff they already enjoyed doin' and doin' it for a boss that knew how to motivate in positive ways and how to join in and be part of the fun of it all. That plus a paycheck and benefits? Why would anyone ever want to go back to a shit job after knowing good jobs exist out there.
In the end restaurant work is completely unfulfilling, largely because tons of customers treat you like shit. I've never experienced that as a software engineer. It's not even about the pay.
For me, job stress has little to do with being extremely busy in the moment and a lot to do with thinking about far-flung high-leverage consequences of mistakes (will this system crash in the middle of the night 2 weeks from now, costing tons of money and causing someone to call me in a panic?). With something like being a cook, failure feedback is usually pretty immediate, which IMO is nice for stress levels.
I wouldn't be a good cook, but I get what you're saying. I miss the jobs I had when I was young that were just repetitive tasks, once muscle memory was established, you could work a shift and have a fresh mind with no stress as soon as the shift ended. I suppose it would be nice if I had my current income with that type of job but alas it was also very unsatisfying to do for a long period of time and I think I'd feel a bit unaccomplished for doing that job for a career.
Have you ever worked in a kitchen or are you just assuming?
I personally haven't worked in a restaurant, but I see how the staff and chefs are always running around, doing 20 things at once. Stimulants use like cocaine and amphetamine is endemic in the industry as well, probably for that reason.
As a restaurant worker, the pay is usually terrible as well. So while some super rich corporation won't lose millions off of your mistakes, you can lose your job and be forced to live off of your inexistent savings. That sounds very stressful to me.
Your assessment for what constitutes stress seems to be, at best, highly subjective.
I worked in very busy bars for a number of years. It’s hard sometimes back breaking work but it was certainly much more “fun”. Up until the point where you end up working for penny pinching gradgrinds who see your “fun” as an externality to be eliminated. At least as a software developer I’ve a good bit more leverage around matters of occupational convenience.
I cooked in professional kitchens for years before becoming a software engineer.
For me, the cumulative stress of the software industry is a lot higher. I can never quite "turn off" and in the long-run it's a lot harder for me to control my psychological stress, than when I was working in a kitchen.
(And of course these are highly subjective, I'd expect nothing less from a psychological phenomenon. Anecdotes will likely be all over the place.)
Ex-deli/pizza shop worker here, you can leave it all at the store when you leave. Your slicer will not send you a message at 2am that everything is burning.
For some people, server jobs are a between what they're doing. Especially for artists/filmmakers it's money between the gigs that don't pay. I met tons of people as a barista doing exactly that.
Worked through college, and yes conditions need to be better overall. A concern would be if it's now a FT 40h something or other, it squeezes out people who take 6 months making coffee to get to their next acting gig. Also, barista jobs are a dime a dozen once you make some friends. Very easy to get rehired, people talk.
