I don't think these vague emotional statements are constructive.
The rules outlined in the article apply to everyone, not just the rich, and they should be fixed for everyone, not just the rich.
In this case leaking Jeff Bezos' tax returns targeted one individual and provided no new useful information. It's exactly what we already expected about his taxes.
...and frankly, the "rich are evil - look how they don't pay taxes on unrealized gains" is a huge distraction from fixing the actual problems with the tax system.
We need to eliminate foreign tax havens, and severely limit non-profit "Foundations".
Rules aren’t set in stone, they can change based on leaks like this.
Assuming people find this information objectionable that’s a reasonable justification to publish. In much the same way that leaking classified documents about questionable activities is morally justified, though illegal. Otherwise stamping secret on any evidence of say torture would work.
and a lot of less famous leaks of restricted information that have led to exposure and sometimes even justice for people who otherwise would have hid behind "legal" defenses for immoral or flat out illegal acts of their own?
I served in the Navy - I had a prety high clearance just to do the job I did. I know the value of classifying or otherwise restricting information. And I know the value of breaking those rules to expose those who would hide their crimes.
I consider the current tax code a recipe/playbook/script for stealing from the American public.
You are presenting an example of government cover ups or crimes. This is not the government doing something wrong, not even a private person doing something wrong.
It’s simple some vigilante having a vendetta against someone they don’t like and using illegal mans to skewer them.
The case they have is known. We know the loopholes. Let's as close them. Don’t go out on personal or vendettas of virtue when it aids nothing. There is nothing new here. Jeff, as much as I dislike his company, didn’t commit a crime.
> It’s simple some vigilante having a vendetta against someone they don’t like and using illegal mans to skewer them.
If the leak's target did nothing illegal or unethical with their taxes, then how are they being skewered? Their taxes would just show them to be an upstanding, law-abiding citizen, right?
So sure, you can claim all you like that we already knew about these holes, but abstract arguments and aggregate data are far less persuasive and motivating than specific examples that clearly show the stark reality.
Or are you forgetting how the George Floyd video galvanized a world-wide movement despite everyone already "knowing" that racism is bad, that it exists, that police training is subpar and that bad cops kill people of colour?
You mean ordinary people might develop a bad view of the untouchably wealthy because of the system they created to preserve their wealth? Cry me a river.
Should we extract more taxes from them, yes, arguably. But we don't have to resort to blackmail or other underworld tactics since it really accomplishes nothing other than momentary outrage by the mob.
You don’t actually become extremely wealthy by creating wealth, you become wealthy by extracting wealth from other people’s work.
Either by inheriting it or some business arrangement where you keep value created by other people. Bill Gates for example didn’t code Windows 7 himself. JK Rawlings didn’t print millions of Harry Potter books or even produce the movies etc. Sorts superstars don’t build stadiums or collect ticket sales etc.
This is most obvious with investments dividends. As such thinking of capital gains as the fruit of their effort is really kind of a silly idea.
the more appropriate comparison in your case would be an open marriage where one partner complains the other is cheating. They set up the rules then complain someone is taking advantage of the rules.
I myself would like Jeff to pay more in taxes. I think the super wealthy pay too little in terms of parentage, but I should be upset with the Congress/IRS not the wealthy.
PS: To better use your analogy, suppose rich guy X, had an open relationship with their spouse (the government) and then started dating someone without mentioning their marriage. That’s much closer to what’s going on because it’s not a question of if what they did was legal but rather the secretary around it and the impact on society.
No, because it’s not the government complaining. The people complaining didn’t create the rules as such the rules are irrelevant to their complaint.
Really, it’s not a question of laws but one of obligations to society as a whole. Because society and the government are different entities but society depends on it’s government.
That something is legally within the bounds of the US tax code is public knowledge.
That ultra-wealthy utilize something to an extent is not public knowledge.
Which cuts to one of the central issues with viewing the US tax code as democratic: there's almost no transparency of use.
The public might feel very different about a particular tax rule if they knew small businesses primarily used it, vs if they knew major corporations used it to shield 90% of their profits.
The IRS should do a better job of anonymizing actual tax reports, and reporting out on patterns in aggregate.
Talk to any software engineer in the valley and they do a lot of the same stuff that Bezos does. The "trick" of not paying taxes until you sell the stock is something I do all the time. It's not a trick even.
The problem with that argument is who get to make that decision? Would you still be saying that if someone leaked you tax records to the general public?
Anybody who has your full tax records has your name, your current and previous addresses, social security number, how much you make, your place of work, the name(s) of your children (if you file as head of household or for child tax credits), etc. What makes you think this treasure trove of information isn't going be used for identity theft? It's like saying you have no objections to someone breaking into your car or house and stealing your stuff, so long as they don't take your driver's license or registration papers and pretend to be you.
At this point, I've come to believe that the real goal has nothing to do with actually fixing the system. I see it time and time again where articles like this get written and the proposals that follow focus solely on increasing income tax and proposing some form of a wealth tax. Nothing about closing the loop holes that allow this situation to happen in the first place.
> In this case leaking Jeff Bezos' tax returns targeted one individual and provided no new useful information. It's exactly what we already expected about his taxes.
I completely agree with your overall point, but this statement is not true. Solid concrete evidence of what we "already expected" _is_ new information. (also, as other commenters have pointed out - what _you_ already expected is not necessarily what the average person already expected)
>In this case leaking Jeff Bezos' tax returns targeted one individual and provided no new useful information. It's exactly what we already expected about his taxes.
I think when he owns the Washington post, it becomes of the public interest.
Hell, in Norway literally everyone's salary is public information. Hasn't seemed to do them any harm either.
“We need to condemn the families and businesses in places like those tiny island nations in the Caribbean to more poverty”
Those tax havens exist because they realize that a very real thing they can offer as a service is a place to domicile a business and capital. Not everyone wants to go to Ireland for its nice beaches you know.
When you use Bermuda like that, you pay various fees to do so (registration fees, banking fees), and money ultimately goes into the national budget from that. The state then invests in infrastructure and some job creation from that national budget.
Similarly, when Caribbean nations sell citizenship to foreigners seeking easier travel or tax optimization (another avenue they have explored into order to diversify their economies), the foreigner typically pays a fee in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for the passport, and that goes into the national budget.
It’s still not acceptable. At least the tax minimizer is following applicable laws, this vigilante is not.
They are taking it upon themselves outside the law to settle disagreements, but they want to leverage new laws to make taxes more aligned with their policy (but obviously they are okay with ignoring other parts of the law —that’s a disconnect).
You can believe in the power of a legal system without respecting the specific legal system that you're currently living under.
Would it be a disconnect to illegally oppose an immoral law - like, say, the legal protection of slaves as property - while simultaneously wanting to pass laws that you expect people to follow - like, say, making slavery illegal? Probably not.
It's inaccurate to treat obedience to the law as a moral act. It can only be moral because the law itself reflects moral attitudes. Wherever there is a disconnect between the law and morality, it is the law that bends - which is exactly why laws can be rewritten in the first place.
I'm not calling any law out as being immoral - I'm pointing out that there's nothing hypocritical in circumventing a law you find to be unjust while still campaigning for changes to the law that you expect others to follow.
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
I’m not a huge fan of gravity hurting me when I fall either, but I’ve found that railing against it is ineffective.
If you want these things to stop, you need to change the incentives that people operate on. Anything else will be like trying to plug holes in a dam with your finger; locally effective at best.
If you earn $100 a week and tax withholding let you have $80 to yourself. That $20 didn’t belong to the government. It belonged to you. You however, having entered into an implicit agreement with society agree you will part with your money and give it to the government (which is different from its being theirs). Now, if you donated some of the $100 to charity or whatever and reduce your tax liability, that’s not “theft”. That’s part of the initial implicit agreement.
No, that's projected. It's not a comment on wealth-creation, but rather that 90% of it, the surplus value, goes to the top. The middle class is getting squeezed.
"feels unfair" depends completely on the Overton Window.
What proportion of Americans have a federal income tax liability of zero or less? (Yes, some Americans get paid to file taxes, via "refundable" tax credits)
I believe it is around 42%.
What proportion of the top income earners pay 80% of Federal income taxes?
Our system is overall quite progressive. To complain that the five or so people mentioned in the article "only" paid billions in taxes over a five year period is a bit nonsensical.
Our overall system is not progressive. Once you factor in the regressive nature of social security taxes and average sales taxes, you quickly see that the rate of taxes paid on all income remains fairly consistent up until you get to people with a net worth in tens of millions plus who pay a much lower percent rate.
> Once you factor in the regressive nature of social security taxes
Social security is effectively a mandatory pension scheme where you get benefits at retirement based on what you paid in, so calling it a regressive tax seems inaccurate.
> and average sales taxes
Many states have exemptions for essential goods to limit the regressive nature of sales taxes, but yes they are regressive overall.
> you quickly see that the rate of taxes paid on all income remains fairly consistent
I'm not sure what your definition of fairly consistent is, but your first sentence is incorrect above, so it's probably not accurate here either.
> up until you get to people with a net worth in tens of millions plus who pay a much lower percent rate.
This is absolutely true, and is something that should be addressed in my opinion. Just taxing capital gains as income would be a great start, and might be enough.
Given that the federal government collects its revenue through income taxes, and that 53% of Americans are children, the elderly, students, retired, disabled, or simply unemployed, how many of those people, in your opinion, should have a federal tax liability?
Also, another 13% of Americans make less than $12/hour, with many of them working under 30 hours a week. Roughly how many of those people, in your opinion, should have a federal tax liability?
The correct response is to use your legislators to change the tax code to be more fair.
Yelling at people for properly taking legal deductions, when you yourself take deductions on your taxes, reeks of hypocrisy and being mad because Joey got a cookie and you didn't.
>reeks of hypocrisy and being mad because Joey got a cookie and you didn't.
You mean because Joey took his allowance and bought the supplies for a lemonade stand, took the money made from that to buy the ingredients to make cookies, then took the time to bake himself cookies.
It's strange that people find a person who creates & grows a company and who pays hundreds of millions of dollars in legally required taxes detestable. Yet a person who fails to gain the basic education that is free to them, who has no ambition, who is literally a drain on society, cannot be criticized. It's astonishing to me that society accepts and allows people to not have a least a high school education.
I wonder what the response would be to an article about how trillions in taxes are not paid because there are millions and millions of people who simply don't develop their personal capital and make decent choices that would result in them earning more and paying more in taxes.
I don’t know why you are being downvoted. If homeless people simply decided to learn Python and read PG essays for inspiration rather than being a drain on society, we could completely eliminate the homeless problem. Hopefully one day the troglodytes making up the rest of the world will catch up to our enlightened viewpoint.
When the US gets overtaken by other economies in Asia, it will be because people there focused on climbing to the top by any means while we whined about how hard our life is.
There are guys in Hyderabad right now in conditions worse than US homelessness learning Python, devops, cloud, virtualization, you name it because that's how they can survive.
I know people in fairly poor countries with terrible crime rates and bad job prospects, and I have never heard them complain about how hard life is. They figure out how to get out of their situation and improve their life.
The idea that someone else has to fix your situation because life is hard has to be one of the most crippling mentalities you could have. The sheer amount of opportunity we have in the west is unprecedented in human history; instead of crying about the fact that your stable job of 20 years is ending, yes: I'm going to say that it is fundamentally you that has to pivot (even if it would be nice if the government helped).
Good one. I do hope people recognize that homeless people constitute less than 1% of Americans. By contrast 60% of tax returns filed by Americans have negative net tax rates. They literally contribute nothing to the running of the Federal government, and for about 40% they contribute nothing to all other levels of government.
This story is about how the very few extremely high earners use sophisticated personal finance strategies to minimize their tax burden. On the other hand huge numbers of people use the unsophisticated strategy of not developing any significant skills or education and not earning much money resulting in not paying any net taxes. Not talking about the super poor who earn nothing, but people who earn $30,000-$60,000/year. At the end of the day, they are not net tax payers.
Don't know why you're being down voted. I have no love for bezos, but insofar as he seems to mostly follow the law, contribute to society, and built a large employer, he seems more worthy of emulation than the randos we are asked to care for on the government dole
> The correct response is to use your legislators to change the tax code to be more fair.
My entire thesis is that vigilante leaks like this are a product of the perceived unwillingness of the legislature to deal with the abuse of tax loopholes or to tax the rich at anywhere close to the rate that the overwhelming majority of voters want. If my theory is correct, then saying “talk to your legislator instead” is almost hilariously tone deaf, given that these leakers are probably taking actions into their own hands in response to a belief that their legislator is lazy or corrupt.
More broadly, my point is that singling out individual actors is an ineffective way to stop stochastic law breaking. Decry and punish individual law breakers all you want, but don’t expect it to stop until you at least triage the underlying causes.
Yup. Few people know that the 401k deduction is a massive loophole someone found and exploited. It was never intended to be a retirement vehicle or used in a widespread manner. There was discussion of repealing it as the tax revenue hit was not planned for.
This is the obvious consequence of a system that feels unfair and unresponsive via normal channels.