30 year pescetarian here. I mean, mainly vegetarian but some fish every so often.
I gave up meat at 17 on the basis of no reason whatsoever, I was just a contrary teen who liked giving things up.
Down the line a few years I find so many compelling reasons to not eat meat. Each individually may be argued out of the room but collectively it's pretty compelling.
Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them.
Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true.
Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc
Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat.
I totally support anyone making whatever decision they like about eating meat, but I'm completely unable to agree that it's a good idea.
Cultured meat in this context is a difficult one to parse. For people like me there's literally no point. I'm just not interested in eating steak, whether it's killed or grown. For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too. I guess there's maybe a middle ground of people who could be convinced to stop eating killed meat if they see an alternative?
It'll be interesting to see where this one goes and how it is marketed...
I agree with a lot of the points you made, though:
> Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them.
Ultimately every animal is going to die. If the moral hangup for you is the certainty of death, then wouldn't you consider any form of reproduction immoral? 'However good and rewarding their life may be, children are still going to die eventually, ergo noone should reproduce'.
Unless it's the act of killing with the intention to consume that's the issue?
I think there's a reductionist angle to your point which just doesn't chime with me. It's a bit like people arguing for anti-natalism. It's interesting, but morally redundant, somehow?
The hangup for me isn't the certainty of death ("relax, you're going to die" is a credo I try hard to live by - even though I fail much of the time and worry about death as much as the next person...). It's just something about breeding a thing to kill it.
There is also something in there about the distance and hypocrisy of many meat eaters when it comes to facing up to what they are putting in their mouths. The thing you see at a supermarket is a million miles away from a hanging carcass; I know a whole bunch of people who don't even tell their young children that the thing they have on their plate is that thing walking around in the field over there - and that seems to me to also be quite disingenuous.
I'm failing to make a good point. But the broader thing for me is as I said - I'm genuinely not a rabid vegetarian (I used to get drunk at uni and sometimes end the night eating kebab along with everyone else...) - is that I'm interested in the combination of reasons which for me have built up into a fairly compelling case over the years. I should say as well - I actually do quite like the taste of meat even though it's been a long, long time - but I have no intention of going back, which is what interests me.
> The hangup for me isn't the certainty of death... It's just something about breeding a thing to kill it.
Fair enough. I don't necessarily fully agree with that specific argument but I can certainly understand where you're coming from. It's one of those head vs heart things: the cold hard logic that all other things being equal, a life followed by death is equivalent to any other, vs the vague moral sense that life should have purpose, and the discomfort when that purpose is 'to be foodstuff'.
That said, I wasn't really arguing for meat consumption generally, I was more just pointing out -- nitpicking might be another word -- a flaw in OPs justification.
I'm in the process of reducing my meat consumption considerably (to 'a couple of times a week') and restricting it to be local and free range. Maybe in a year I'll be full vego, who knows.
Interesting point you raise about a willing blindness of some carnivores. I'm not sure I've really encountered the level of denial that you mention myself, possibly because of the semi-rural area I grew up in, but I don't doubt that it exists. Humans are highly skilled at avoiding the uncomfortable and maintaining delusions.
If you could grow and kill with a small fraction of the suffering that farmed animals endure today, then eating meat would be mostly fine (other than environmental issues, perhaps). Unfortunately that's impossible for all but a very small minority of people - those who can raise and kill animals themselves or have someone they trust very well to do it for them.[0][1]
Well over 95% of meat is factory farmed[2], and animals that are raised in factory farms do not live pleasant lives, to put it lightly.[3] This is coming from someone who grew up on a farm, and whose parents are still farmers.
[0] People think that buying from their local butcher or local farm must make their meat ethical. In fact, small abbatoirs often have very shoddy killing protocols compared to the large ones. You end up with farmers clubbing animals to death, or putting 5 bullets into a pig's head before it dies: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-14/tasmanian-abattoir-ac...
[1] Hunting isn't an ethical source of meat. Even professional hunters (e.g. those who kill kangaroos for farmers in AU) will let ~1 in 20 get away with a bullet in them. That could mean suffering for hours or even days if it clots but then dies due to internal bleeding or infection. I used to hunt and I would go to sleep thinking about the animals that got away wounded that day. Still, it took me far too long to realise that there is no need to eat animals.
>Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc
It took me 5 minutes of Googling to find articles that refute this from all kinds of credible sources.
Going vegetarian might be a step up from the average Americans diet, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any research that demonstrates plant-based diets are any better than a balanced diet that includes meat protein.
I dunno what Google you're using but it took me half a minute to get to multiple sources suggesting vegetarians are on average healthier, have lower BMI, lower incidents of common cancers and more. Obviously balance probably trumps everything as it always does but there's imo fairly compelling evidence in the non meat direction, on average, for most people.
But once again may I stress that for me it's a whole range of factors that make this compelling, not just one.
Even without studies, ask yourself why you most likely have a relative or know someone who's died from heart disease or a cancer and that likelihood plummets when looking at those that eat less or no meat? Then look at populations where meat consumption has gone up in the past few decades and certain cancers and cardiovascular diseases have gone up in tandem?
Buuuuuut can't let anyone stand in between you and your Whopper®, right?!
I'm not American, so who cares. But some of the highest life expectancy in the world are European countries. I certainly don't see "Asia" (lol) as a standout.
>Even without studies, ask yourself...
Not interested in anecdata or hocus pocus.
>Buuuuuut can't let anyone stand in between you and your Whopper®, right?!
See, the difference between you and me is that I don't care what you choose to eat. Meanwhile, you feel the need to shame and lie and impose your preferences on others. It's why "annoying vegetarian" is a meme.
You can control for a bunch of lifestyle factors like smoking and exercise level, and the correlation still exists. It uncontroversial at this point - which is why every major national dietetics association (don't confuse them with "nutritionists") has a position statement on plant-based diets saying that they're as healthy or healthier than regular diets.
And with UFC fighters[0], NBA planers, national weightlifting champtions[1], world-record-holding powerlifters[2], and so on eating plant-based diets, it's getting harder to make the "okay, sure you live longer, but you probably sacrifice strength/vigor/etc throughout your life" claim.
My comment re: homeopathy/traditional meds was an attempt to contrast the wild wild west dumpster fire that is Big Pharma with traditional meds. Pill popping countries have an opioid crisis whilst less meat eating populations aren't heavily reliant on the pharmaceutical industry because they have far less diet related health issues. In hindsight, I could have phrased that better. Then again, you could have parsed what I was trying to get across.
The rest of this must be directed at OP because I too know and believe a plant based diet carries longer life expectancy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Didn't say you were. Never assumed you were American.
Of the provided links [1], [2] and [3], two of them show Honk Kong, Japan, Macau, Singapore and South Korea in the top 10. Europe gets 3 with Israel and Australia rounding out the 10. You're not incorrect by saying * some * but with Asian countries outnumbering European, lol at how wrong I am.
Your condescending tone is merely a eurocentric insecurity of the decline in your population. With birth rates plummeting, centuries, if not decades, from now, Europe won't be as white, as homogenous as it is (or was) so I understand your response of lashing out instead of accepting Asian countries might lead in anything of consequence.
I'll concede that what I meant by continent, I was actually referring to (specific) Asian countries, not the continent as a whole. Due to lifestyle and diet, Asian countries are more homogenous than other continents hence my lumping them together.
> Not interested in anecdata or hocus pocus.
Meat loving countries have higher obesity rates thus poorer health outcomes. No hocus pocus re: this observation. For someone not interested in anecdata, you miserably failed to do a simple query: https://start.duckduckgo.com/?q=life+expectancy+by+continent
> See, the difference between you and me is that I don't care what you choose to eat. Meanwhile, you feel the need to shame and lie and impose your preferences on others. It's why "annoying vegetarian" is a meme.
Neither do I. I'm shaming Americans and any person who thinks it's okay to eat meat without acknowledging the consequences it has on our environment. Basically what I take issue with is how your diet affects climate change which affects all of us!
PS: I eat meat regularly. I could quit given the need to but don't see myself consuming 'meat' grown artificially.
The is no evidence that homeopathy is effective at treating anything. On the other hand there's a mountain of evidence that people who eat no meat, or less than once per week live significantly longer. See citations on this[0] wiki page. The studies control for a bunch of different lifestyle factors including smoking, exercise level, and so on.
Hardcore fleshy here. I have no ethical concern in killing an animal for food. But if someone can lab grow meat that tastes like meat sign me up. My only concerns would be taste, cost and food safety.
Out of interest, which would you choose on balance in a scenario in which the lab meat tasted the same, cost the same and came with the same food safety aspects?
I like the idea of lab grown as it is a promising way to increase our food production. If it costs the same that indicates it's no more efficient than growing animals for food.
"For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too."
I think you're really painting people who don't follow your thinking with a pretty aggressively negative stereotype here.
I love a good steak. The fact that it came from a cow is irrelevant to me - I like it for taste/texture/etc. If you can give me the exact same product from a lab, I'll 100% buy it (especially if it's cheaper). This is how most people are (and not just about meat) - they care about the end product they're consuming, not its origins or how it got to them (otherwise, y'know, we'd be thinking about where our iPhones came from and whatnot). Give them the identical product they have now that's better along some line that matters to them (like cost) and they'll happily switch.
Ethical: cruelty is bad, so responsible production of meat is preferred but there’s no reason why killing animal for food should be bad, such that same argument can’t be applied to veggie production.
Environmental: grass fed meat is very much preferred to monoculturing the crap out of our planet. Animas are part of life cycle of the environment.
Health: crappy grains have done way more health damage than crappy meats. Also focusing on meat exclusively, skipping organs is unhealthy. Saturated fats aren’t as bad as you’re told (only in combination with sugars). Red meat doesn’t cause cancer (smoked foods do). Lots of myths around nutrition.
As I said, I'm not even vaguely tense about arguing the point - for me these have all emerged long after I made the decision to be vegetarian. I just don't think you're right :-)
> Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them.
No, there are a lot of arguing about this. There is no ethical consensus on "killing animals" being the "wrong" thing. Hell there is not even consensus on whether an objective ethics is possible.
Organisms consume other organisms. This is part of the cycle of life. Declaring this objectively wrong without exceptions just because you feel bad for the poor animals is a weak argument at its best.
You can talk about the perils of the modern day animal farming which involves treating animals like vegetables and "growing" them in conditions indistinguishable from torture; but that doesn't have to mean "killing animals" is bad per se.
> Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true.
Yes, but there is research supporting that grain and vegetable farming has a lot of problems as well. Farming in scale in general is a problematic thing. Some even go as far as to state that animal farming can be even less harmful environmentally, when done right. What I'm trying to say is that, this claim hasn't been proven yet. If you want to see counter arguments and relevant research, try following a couple of carnivore diet advocates on social media. I don't have any links to share off the top of my head at the moment and I'm sorry about it. But there is no real consensus here, not so easy.
> Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc
Yes, there are a lot past research about this. But as we can see today there are a lot of problems with those researches as well. A lot of them are being challenged today. Ketogenic and carnivore diets are on the rise and for good reason. USDA's food pyramid is reversed. Fat, eggs and animal protein are no longer the enemy according to many new researches. I suggest you to keep up with the new research as well.
> Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat.
Yes, this may be the kicker for you. For many, animal based foods are still irreplaceable. Not much point talking about this as it's fairly subjective.
If ethics are a priority, then how can you be a vegetarian as opposed to a vegan? If as a vegetarian you acknowledge consuming animal products, which ethics are you compromising (just curious).
I gave up meat at 17 on the basis of no reason whatsoever, I was just a contrary teen who liked giving things up.
Down the line a few years I find so many compelling reasons to not eat meat. Each individually may be argued out of the room but collectively it's pretty compelling.
Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them.
Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true.
Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc
Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat.
I totally support anyone making whatever decision they like about eating meat, but I'm completely unable to agree that it's a good idea.
Cultured meat in this context is a difficult one to parse. For people like me there's literally no point. I'm just not interested in eating steak, whether it's killed or grown. For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too. I guess there's maybe a middle ground of people who could be convinced to stop eating killed meat if they see an alternative?
It'll be interesting to see where this one goes and how it is marketed...