Well, tolerance has got us non-solutions like vaccine waivers for schools, and legislation that makes it easier for people who choose not to vaccinate their kids to spread easily preventable diseases. It also got us sick and dead kids.
Yes, it's a belief/acceptance/trust/whatever you want to call it. I believe demonstrated science is fact, but that's still a belief about the world. My parents are in scientific fields, I received a science and engineering based education, and generally have faith in the scientific method as performed by most scientists.
But we DO have to convince people, we have to convince people by showing them how it works, and letting them decide that that makes sense, you can't just mandate belief as a science authoritarian.
And science is still performed by humans, and we're fallible, and our incentives aren't always good, and every time there's a public failure of the process, and every time a scientist goes on record to shill for a company's chosen viewpoint, it dings the general public's faith in science and scientific experts in general.
You arguments here are the problem. I know that you mean well and in a perfect world what you say would make sense, but when you say “science is still performed by humans” is an opportunity for the school dropout to say, “see even between them they have doubts, the earth is flat”.
What’s the better alternative? If you don’t explain how we know the earth is roughly spherical, that’s the opportunity for that person to conclude “see, they can’t even refute it; look for yourself, sheeple...”
Your understanding of science is pretty bad if you seriously believe there are no rational objections (re: long-term effects) to consuming a drug that didn't even exist a year ago.
Done right, being less tolerant of speech/behavior that can be detrimental to the common good does change minds for the better. Any "code of conduct" is precisely this: directly calling out detrimental behavior as vile with no tolerance for it. The fact that nearly half of voters in the United States support Trump does not change this.
So you're saying that authoritarian measures are the way? Codes of conduct change minds if people are receptive, or they play along so that they don't get abused, and it looks like it's changed their mind.
From where I'm sitting, perceived authoritarian tendencies on the democratic side is a large part of what really motivates Trump voters. That's certainly a lot of the narrative, if you ever visit that side of the media landscape.
> That’s what censorship is. A small group of people will decide what is considered misinformation and will censor everything that goes against that
This is not censorship. Censorship is stopping you from expressing your thoughts. Not publishing your thoughts is not. You can say whatever you want but no newspaper is in any obligation to publish it.
Similar with social media, you can write whatever you want on your personal "page", but they are under no obligation to make sure it reaches other people's feed.
Is censorship really the greatest crime? Is there no intelligent way to facilitate the search for truth that doesn’t require us to get bogged down in accepting every possibility as equally plausible? Of course there is. One thing is certain. Crying “that’s censorship!” will not get us to that place.
There is a time in not that long ago recorded history where this would have risked settling on the conclusion that the Earth was the center of the universe (and it was flat), leeches and blood-letting were a treatment for diseases, and heavier than air flying machines were impossible.
If you’ll permit a scientifically inaccurate analogy here: sunlight is the best disinfectant.
So is fighting misinformation a lost cause, or can we come up with some plan that doesn't involve a small group of people censoring it? Would some kind of distributed rating system like upvotes/downvotes be acceptable, or is the better course of action to be okay with letting all information -- even if specifically designed to trick people, not only the most gullible, but even the most discerning skeptics -- circulate?
I believe the government should not have a say in whether or not all information circulates, but ordinary people who build information sharing systems (and I don't just mean electronic ones) have an opportunity to figure this out. Should they not?
I don't think authoritarian measures are an appropriate way for a government to operate, but in the context of whether something is "against HN rules" I think making it known that an idea is harmful is a good thing.
It all comes down to whether or not the community in question is one in which members can readily leave without cost. I don't agree with making anti-vaxxers change their ways by government force, but I'm into being intolerant of them in other ways to the point that they'll come around and obviate any need for governmental force in the first place.
How can you be sure that the censors will always be on the side of the angels?
Follow-up question: how can you be sure that you, personally, are on the side of the angels? Especially if you have never been allowed to hear the opposing point of view?
Seriously, the growing support for censorship in the previously libertarianish Tech community has been the worst development of the last decade.
Actually, I don't care for censorship. I'd rather let the idea be presented and let the intolerance for it drown it out by way of copious rebuttals, not removal. I won't know if I'm on the side of the angels, but I'll know I'm in good company and I'll have heard both sides at levels roughly proportionate to the size of the population interested in defending each side.
In hindsight, I see how citing codes of conduct implies support for censorship, when my actual intent was simply to demonstrate another example of "intolerance" having noble goals.
These are fine questions, and their answers should sit uncomfortably in all humans. But unless we are content to let human knowledge dissolve into meaninglessness, we must look to something external to our own reasoning to help decide what to believe. For me, I have drawn that line at Scientific Consensus because it has proved the most robust tool humanity has ever found for determining what is actually true. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than everything else? Undoubtedly yes. I think it must be the starting point and possibly the ending point for all discussions of this nature. To use another tool you must first convince me it is better than Scientific Consensus.
"ut unless we are content to let human knowledge dissolve into meaninglessness, we must look to something external to our own reasoning to help decide what to believe. For me, I have drawn that line at Scientific Consensus because it has proved the most robust tool humanity has ever found for determining what is actually true"
Well, I agree with the scientific consensus on a general base. But since science was not always right, I don't see a valid argument from there to censorship.
You want to censor ideas not covered by scientific consensus?
"and their answers should sit uncomfortably in all humans"
Because, also no. I do not feel uncomfortable. I am strongly against censorship. Open, unrestricted exchange of ideas. If the scientific way is the best (which I believe), then the crackpot approaches will fail naturally. But if you censor those other approaches, you might actually strenghten them.
Your plan is reasonable if human minds were genuinely and effectively open to letting the best ideas win. But they are not. Human minds care more about reputation than veracity and this has important ramifications for plans like yours: namely that they don’t work. Confirmation bias is real and pervasive and as completely in control of my mind as it is of yours. I encourage you to read Haidt’s The Righteous Mind and see if what you purpose still makes sense.
And this is the root of the divide, as far as I can tell. It's quite literally nerds and bullies all over again. Those who see the light and those who think you're a tool for doing so.
Netiquette 101: Don't feed the trolls. (But here we are.)
