You engage by not going in with the intent to change a person's mind. Instead, you go in with the intent to understand their position. Just because someone's conclusion seems ridiculous or wrong doesn't mean there aren't underlying facts that, when seen from a certain perspective, and with a certain context, make that conclusion seem reasonable.
There are real, legitimate, reasons why Trump voters believe what they believe. That many get caught up in the rhetoric of their "side" or don't know how to have a discussion with a goal other than "win" doesn't mean they don't see real problems that are urgent and important problems that need to be fixed.
Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil cabal any day now!), and millions of illegal voters and criminals around every corner. Zero evidence for any of it. These aren't fringe views as many of us can attest to - this is crap millions have to listen to every day coming from their closest friends and family.
Two decades ago the Republican party acted as a bulwark against rapid change and as the yin in the yin-yang of individual vs collective. Not no more; we don't have another two decades for our education system to bring us back from the brink.
I honestly think that if Biden does nothing else, engineering an environment where people accept basic common facts has to be somewhere at the start of it. As you say, once your base facts about reality differ there's really no hope for reconciliation about things at a higher level than that. And for all the healthy spirit of "both-sides-ism" in this thread, I will put it out there that there is one side that has egregiously allowed it and its supporters to become detached from reality. Note I'm not talking about "bias" here which both sides certainly exhibit, but concrete basic verifiable facts of reality. I really don't see how much can be achieved if we can't repair that. And as much as I want to encourage a new spirit of unity, I fear that if that becomes an excuse to not confront this problem, then it will actually just make things worse.
I agree. I don't think the vast majority of conservatives are intransigent, just so emotional wrapped up in their beliefs that they're completely unable to distinguish fact from fiction. I don't think it's a coincidence that it happened to the party that Barry Goldwater referenced in this prediction: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." It's not a coincidence that the qanon conspiracy is chock full of rhetoric about satanic rituals either.
> And as much as I want to encourage a new spirit of unity, I fear that if that becomes an excuse to not confront this problem, then it will actually just make things worse.
Here's why I have absolutely zero faith that a spirit of unity will work: this "situation" has been festering since the founding of this nation and every time "unity" prevailed, the can was just kicked down the road. We wanted "All men are created equal" and got the 3/5ths compromise. We tried to save the Union, only to give up on Reconstruction before it could even really begin while institutionalizing slavery in the 13th amendment. Instead of letting general Sherman raze the south, we paid for their rebuild on the backs of "free" African Americans and let them institute Jim Crow laws to continue the oppression. When the Civil Rights movement and desegregation finally came home to roost, it caused the biggest political realignment in this country's history taking us up to this point.
We wanted the best, but it turned out like always.
Nothing demonstrates more the acceptance of basic facts than pretending, when launching a campaign, that it is motivated by Trump calling white supremacists “fine people” when anyone can look at the transcript of that speech and see that a few lines below Trump explicitly condemns white supremacists.
It is unfortunate but lying openly about facts has become the only common ground in US politics, and so many people seem to be completely blind to the lies of their own camp.
I completely agree with you. I have winced about that being thrown at Trump ever since the incident - I think it was horrendously poor wording, but it was actually him in his own way attempting to unify people.
However at the same time I want to clarify that I'm talking here about a level of facts even more basic than that. That is still an interpretation of what he said but at least he said it. We have an even deeper problem right now where people believe things that are completely totally untrue. Things that are provably not true without any need to bring any interpretation into it.
For example, how do we have a reasonable discussion about how to fix social justice if one side believes most of Portland has been taken over by anarchists burning cars and smashing windows of every shop and the other things it's a peaceful hippie commune covering a block and a half? Somewhere in there is an objective truth. If we can't get to that, we're never going to have a productive discussion about the underlying problems.
He didn't call whites supremacists white people, if you listen to the rest of the sentence, he was referring to the protesters from BOTH sides that they are fine people. And then said that he condemns neo Nazis and white supremacists. I only came across this this morning btw, and I too believed he really did call them fine people..
EDIT: watch this whole thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmaZR8E12bs
"you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. [...] And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly."
What president in modern history has waited for the electoral college vote to make a victory speech? Given that Trump isn't likely to ever concede, I'm not sure what he's supposed to wait for, besides all the networks calling it. (Which they were very cautious in doing, waiting until PA was clearly out of reach.)
I suspect you're lying because Pew research shows the vast majority of Republicans don't even know what QAnon is. More Democrats know about QAnon than Republicans (28% vs 18%).
I'm lying about my personal experience with my family?
18% of Republicans is at least ten million people, if not tens of millions, which is an order of magnitude more than I thought. Pizzagate and the illegal voters was the party line from Fox including Hannity and Carlson and is easily accessible with a [whatever you prefer] search.
The time for rhetoric and comity was a year ago when COVID didn't kill hundreds of thousands. Now is the time for action.
That is a ridiculous argument to be honest. 100% of Americans have heard of Nazism. Does that mean 100% of Americans are Nazis? By your logic, more Democrats are QAnon believers (28%).
Fair point, but the Democrats aren't the ones literally espousing Qanon and Nazi rhetoric. The number is somewhere in the middle, enough so that all the major networks utter the name on a regular basis.
I just did a Google search for QAnon for Tucker and Fox News. The news on QAnon are labeled under "conspiracy" on foxnews.com. I see no promotion of the QAnon theory anywhere.
I didn't say that Tucker/Carlson/Fox promoted qanon (I referenced them in the context of pizzagate/illegal votes), I implied that some Republicans did, far in excess of their opposites.
For what it's worth, AFAIK qanon has only been mentioned/displayed in passing on Fox [1] and while I haven't been on Fox specifically, I've never been prepped or had my wardrobe reviewed on other national broadcasters' programs so I assume they don't exert editorial control either. I'm too tired to do a deep dive for pizzagate so I will admit I may be confusing it with the Seth Rich conspiracy. It's hard to keep track this deep into the abyss.
The democrats love to trot this out, the fringe group that somehow is a massive threat. Meanwhile they act suspiciously silent about the riots we had with BLM, which caused actual and serious damage. Not much about Philadelphia at all.
Looking at the survey it asks "How much, if anything, have you heard or read about QAnon?" I'd be interested to see how many are aware of QAnon conspiracy theories but don't necessarily know the origin.
Do you believe otherwise? It's very clearly the case; the whole QAnon conspiracy theory is built around Trump being some kind of savior and democrats being a ring of child molesters. Of course it's believed by more Trump than Biden supporters. That doesn't mean the majority of them believe it of course, but some high profile ones certainly do, including Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is now a member of congress.
This approach right here is why things are getting worse.
Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication?
Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
> Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above).
I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.
While this view is potentially applicable to the party as a whole. I still maintain that the best way to engage with an individual is to try to understand, from their perspective, why they've come to the conclusion they've come to. Even when they say there's nothing to understand. Even for those with extreme, reprehensible views. You can understamd without agreeing, but it takes effort to fight down the "cast out the evil other side" feeling that is super easy to fall into.
Most people aren't that one-dimensional, even when they've wrapped themselves up in a one-dimensonal identity. There is nuance and context to how each person arrives at the conclusions they do, even when they'd struggle to explain or remember it.
If you refuse to empathize, you're making things worse.
You definitely won’t find common ground if you think the Republicans accept or even tolerate Nazis and white supremacists. They have about as much to do with them as the democrats have to do with the KKK (which was started by democrats).
When I say "facts", I don't mean the politically charged "facts" that people argue with. I mean the ones about their life experiences that led them to the dark place they find themselves in. You don't exit the womb a neo-nazi, you get there over time, through (bad) experience, and (questionable) learning. If you can't answer the "why do they believe what they do?" with a genuine, i.e. not rhetoric, not othering, answer, you don't have the facts.
There are truly horrible people out there, but the vast majority of people that voted Trump are normal people with boring everyday lives. Treating every individual in that group like its extremists serves only to divide and polarize. It makes the problem worse. IF your goal is to effect positive change, you need to take a different approach. However, if you goal is to feel superior and good and like you're "on the right team", feel free to keep hating.
Trying to understand first is futile when there is no good faith way to see 'real, legitimate, reasons ... believe what they believe'
Th 'rhetoric they get caught up in' is so wildly insane it's like looking at a falling apple. Except half would go wow look at that gravity! the other half would say, oh that's a secret sign from Q about an underground pedophilic sex ring funded by selling pizza.
that may seem like an extreme example, but part of my state elected a CONGRESSWOMEN who believes this.
I can't attempt to understand first - because it's absolutely bonkers and detached from reality.
And that's just one of the more extreme examples I could spend all night typing more
> when there is no good faith way to see 'real, legitimate, reasons ... believe what they believe'
That's exactly my point. There is. It's not impossible to come to understand the life experiences that led a person into a dark place where they feel attacked and choose to wrap themselves in fantasy to feel empowered.
> I can't attempt to understand first
While it may make you feel good and superior to reject these people outright, by refusing to do so, you become part of the problem.
> And that's just one of the more extreme examples I could spend all night typing more
I can't stress this enough: WHAT they believe is basically irrelevant to my point. If your response to what I say involves "extreme examples", you've missed (accidentally, or purposefully) my point.
> Just because someone's conclusion seems ridiculous or wrong doesn't mean there aren't underlying facts that, when seen from a certain perspective, and with a certain context, make that conclusion seem reasonable.
What about things like taxes where it’s all cold hard math? There’s no nuance when a poor or middle class person thinks they need to worry about (for example) an inheritance tax.
There is nuance for why a person who, in practice doesn't need to worry, thinks they need to. Why does that scare them? Why does it motivate them? Why is it so important to them?
This can, and will, vary subtly from individual to individual, and unless you're spending millions on TV airtime, you're only interacting with individuals.
Who you tax and what you spend tax revenues on is entirely based on a point of view. Calculating taxes is cold hard math, but deciding taxation and spending policies is not.
I did. It didn't get me anywhere. Let me explain why:
Most of the people in my extended family are right-wing Republican Mormons.
They believe that anything that could be labeled "socialism" is literally evil, and will literally lead to the "destruction" of our country, because Eisenhower's Secretary of Agriculture said so, and they literally believe that man was a prophet of God.
I'm not exaggerating here.
A significant portion of these people get their news from Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, and Glen Beck. They might be a little wrong once in a while, but for the most part, these are "smart men" who "know what's going on behind the curtain".
A significant portion of those people actually believe QAnon. Hell, we have congresspeople who believe that conspiracy theory.
So how did they get there?
They are in a cult. I'm not going to pull any punches: Mormonism is thoroughly falsifiable. It insulates its members from the faith-destroying facts about its history.
Cults work. The belief these people have is so deeply heartfelt that they refuse to even consider the possibility they might be wrong.
Cult members have a lot of practice. If they can ignore reality to preserve their religious faith, they can reject reality to defend their political ideology.
Cult members are vulnerable. Anyone who convinces a cult member that they promote the cult can manipulate most cult members into supporting them.
I know my perspective is only a small part of America, but everything I know about Trump's political base has the same hallmarks. Cults are not a small or isolated problem in America.
I have tried to appeal to them with the overtly socialist agenda of New Testament Jesus. That simply isn't the deity they worship. Most American Christians worship Supply Side Jesus. Conservatism has become a deep-rooted part of their personal ideology.
There are no underlying facts. There is instead underlying fiction. There is no reasoning these people out of their delusion.
> They believe that anything that could be labeled "socialism" is literally evil, and will literally lead to the "destruction" of our country, because Eisenhower's Secretary of Agriculture said so, and they literally believe that man was a prophet of God.
What qualifies (to each of them) as "socialism"? What kind of "destruction" will befall the country, and when? It sounds like they want to protect something. What is that something? Why is it important to them?
> A significant portion of these people get their news from Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, and Glen Beck. They might be a little wrong once in a while, but for the most part, these are "smart men" who "know what's going on behind the curtain".
So? Why do they want these people to be right? What part of their value structure make these comfortable conclusions for them?
> [Stuff about cults]
Cults are a terrible thing, no argument here.
> There are no underlying facts.
Of course there are, you've stated some of them here. I don't means the "facts" of rhetoric, I mean the facts about their lives.
Several people have responded to me and explained how "ridiculous" the things the things these people believe are. Which misses my point entirely.
> Conservatism has become a deep-rooted part of their personal ideology.
Why? This is a question whose answer can, and will vary subtly from individual to individual. People aren't robots, and beliefs don't have an off switch. A dozen people can believe the same thing for different reasons and to different degrees. Others will say they believe something, while actually only believing that they should say they do for some other, unsaid reason. Yet others still will think they believe something, but certain experiences might unmask the cognitive dissonance within.
People are complicated bundles of personal history, not mannequins with an R or D sticker on them.
Does that really matter when the distance traveled is zero?
You said earlier:
> You engage by not going in with the intent to change a person's mind. Instead, you go in with the intent to understand their position.
Having done the latter (I was in the very same position only a few years ago), I was trying to do the former.
> What qualifies (to each of them) as "socialism"? What kind of "destruction" will befall the country, and when? It sounds like they want to protect something. What is that something? Why is it important to them?
Anything that can be labeled Socialism. Single payer healthcare. Higher taxes for anyone, including billionaires. Minimum wage.
> What kind of "destruction" will befall the country, and when?
It doesn't really get less vague than that. This is where belief in a cult's narrative gets abused by the right-wing political narrative. For Mormons, it's the "Second Coming of Jesus Christ".
There is actually a significant intersection with the right-wing political narrative and the Mormon one. His name was Ezra Taft Benson. He was Eisenhower's Secretary of Agriculture, then the President of and Prophet for The LDS Church. He preached that God himself was against communism and socialism. He called the Civil Rights movement a "Tool of Communist Deception".
> It sounds like they want to protect something. What is that something?
The status quo. The world as a reflection of their ideology. Their delusion. The Republican Party. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
> Why is it important to them?
Cults demand importance. They are told constantly that if the world doesn't reflect their ideology that society will literally fall apart. They are taught in Mormonism that all throughout history, God himself felled cities like Sodom and Gomorrah because the people became "prideful and immoral" and refused to listen to the warning of Prophets. They are told by right-wing talking heads like Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, Glen Beck, etc. that our society is losing its moral footing, and that anyone who thinks differently is stupid and malignant.
> > [Stuff about cults]
> Cults are a terrible thing, no argument here.
The stuff about cults is vitally important. It informs a pattern of thinking that is open to abuse. That is the root of the problem here. The stuff about cults cannot be separated from the rest.
> > There are no underlying facts.
> Of course there are, you've stated some of them here. I don't means the "facts" of rhetoric, I mean the facts about their lives.
What these people believe to be facts about their lives have no basis in reality. The very foundation of these alleged facts is rhetoric.
> > Conservatism has become a deep-rooted part of their personal ideology.
> Why? This is a question whose answer can, and will vary subtly from individual to individual. People aren't robots, and beliefs don't have an off switch. A dozen people can believe the same thing for different reasons and to different degrees. Others will say they believe something, while actually only believing that they should say they do for some other, unsaid reason. Yet others still will think they believe something, but certain experiences might unmask the cognitive dissonance within.
Why? Because they are in a cult. Their personal ideology has literally been replaced by external narratives. They do differ on small details (rejecting what they personally know to be false), but the greater picture is always the same.
> People are complicated bundles of personal history, not mannequins with an R or D sticker on them.
Well, that's how it should be. Unfortunately, many are convinced that being a mannequin with an R next to their name makes them an excellent political candidate, and that anyone with a D next to their name is an evil socialist actively destroying our society. Does it make sense? No. It's not about sense. It's about keeping everything in line with the ideological and cult narratives.
There are real, legitimate, reasons why Trump voters believe what they believe. That many get caught up in the rhetoric of their "side" or don't know how to have a discussion with a goal other than "win" doesn't mean they don't see real problems that are urgent and important problems that need to be fixed.
Empathize first, argue second.