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Germany didn't even have a minimum wage until fairly recently. The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either, see eg https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countri... Neither does Switzerland.

What's with the American obsession with outlawing poor people's jobs?

(My adopted home country, one of the richest places in the world and one of the best places to live, doesn't have a minimum wage either.)



However, those countries generally have decent benefits and social housing, so people's net wages provide an adequate standard of living. And the wages are collectively negotiated by unions in a way that is now very rare in the anglosphere: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countri...


You're right that those countries don't have a government mandated minimum wage. That doesn't mean there is no minimum wage in practice though.

Scandinavian countries have massive powerful trade unions that work to negotiate standards and wages for everyone. Even if you're not actively part of a union, your employer will almost certainly use Collective Labor Agreement negotiated by the trade union. This CLA guarantees certain things like vacation time, minimum wages, break times, etc.

Now you could not use a CLA drafted by a union and instead try to fuck people over with your own contracts. That's not very likely to work though since these countries tend to have strong social welfare systems coupled with free healthcare. So if people quite due to shitty pay and/or hours, they can still make do with social benefits. Also people here in Finland at least, know that for most jobs you absolutely want a CLA drafted by one of the unions because that CLA protects you.

Most companies use the CLA's as a base and allow employees to negotiate better contracts if they want to. E.g you can ask for less hours and more pay, the CLA generally only guarantees minimums. Now an employer can always try to renegotiate the agreement with the union for their workers, but you better be damn sure you treat your workers right since if the unions decide that you're not, they will fuck you up.

These unions are massive and hold a ton of power. In Finland over 70% belong to a union and it is not uncommon for them to strike if the employers are trying to fuck them up. The best example of this is the recent chaos with the Finnish Postal Service.

To give you an idea on what happened, the postal service tried to renegotiate the CLA they used, which would have resulted in worse pay and hours for the workers. Union was taking none of it and went to strike. The postal service tried to get around this using questionable means which broke International Labour Organizations rules. This led to a ton of sympathy strikes which eventually ground the nation to a standstill.

Public transportation froze, flights were cancelled, trains didn't run, all goods transported by postal cars were boycotted by unions this led to stores not being stocked up as they should have for example, ferries and cruise ships under Finnish flag froze. Among numerous other things. The unions eventually won after inconveniencing thousands of people and costing corporations tens of millions of euros.

The workers didn't get shafted and their rights were protected even without a government mandated minimum wage.


Even with unions this probably wouldn’t happen in America. People just don’t organize, strike, or care about their civic duties or expressing their opinion. I don’t know what happened to us. Maybe we’re all just lazy now?


I suspect that US laws have made unions mostly toothless. I know this has happened to teachers unions. It's illegal for teachers unions in TN to strike(I don't know about other states). What power does a union have if they can't strike? Also Unions have been demonized in the US media and now public perception of unions is extremely low. Which is sad because they're one of the few tools workers have to bargain for their own rights.


Well, it's only public service unions that can't strike (it depends on state/federal/etc. so there are a lot of things here that I can't accurately comment on) and even so I'm not sure that I find myself agreeing with collective bargaining for public employees either. It's a topic for discussion, for sure.

But the point I wanted to make was that I think even if we had stronger unions, Americans like myself have become lazy and afraid of being inconvenienced. We had Occupy Wall-Street, but I'm just not sure. I just don't envision my fellow Americans striking, together, for things. We're barely united on anything as it is right now.

Just some general thoughts/comments. I'd love to hear other perspectives on this.


Now you could not use a CLA drafted by a union and instead try to fuck people over with your own contracts.

That would be illegal in Switzerland (not really a business hating commie hell hole). When a collective agreement exists for specific areas it applies to all companies in that area.

That's not to say that dodgy firms don't try to get around it, but if they're caught it it gets expensive and troublesome. And checks (alas, I don't know if sufficiently) are conducted.


It's not so clear as it's not entirely objective to determine what companies exist in a certain area.

The national mail in Finland is tasked to do letter service, which no other postal company is doing. Letter service is also the most human intensive job there is.


> The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either

Their unions regulate wages, and in practice this means the same thing as a government-mandated minimum wage. It just so happens that their structure is a little different.


> What's with the American obsession with outlawing poor people's jobs?

Because other countries haven't institutionalised the idea of poverty-line wages.


> Germany didn't even have a minimum wage until fairly recently

We don't really have a minimum wage in Austria either, but wages are regulated per industry. So employers are still required to pay certain wages, even though we don't have a general minimum wage.

And there's no such thing as including tips in the wage, tips are always extra.

(There is one major loophole, of course, which is hiring people as contractors, but that requires convincing the authorities that your employees are not really employees)


The minimum wage ensures that those 'poor people' can afford to eat.

The countries you mention don't need minimum wages set because they have other mechanisms or even just social norms that ensure nobody is having to work 8 jobs to try to feed their kids.


If you want poor people to be able to eat, give them money.


Right, which is exactly what I was saying, those societies mentioned as not having a minimum wage tend to have other mechanisms to either set an effective minimum or structures to help out. It's not like those other countries without minimum wages also give poorer people the finger in every other way, like the US does, and as I imagine would be the case in your (obviously) libertarian fantasy-land.


I live in Singapore. We don't have a minimum wage.

It's a neoliberal fantasy-land, yes. Lee Kuan Yew's autobiography was called "From Third World to First" for good reason.


Singapore has public housing, subsidized healthcare, public schools, mandatory military service and public transportation.

Also living on any sort of low wage is massivly uncomfortable. Just affording air conditioning is difficult.

Even people with great jobs end up living with multiple generations of family in tiny apartments.


Might want to update your profile then, it still says London.

What do we know about Singapore? It has masses and masses of public housing, so people are looked after in a way that doesn't happen in the US. The US is very keen to push this sort of thing on employers - see also health insurance.

It's a different model and I would agree probably a worse one, but either way it's the state ensuring people have their basic needs met.


Ha, Bloomberg is also no longer current.

The US healthcare-through-employer tax rebates are crazy. But politically untouchable, alas.


Minimum wages don't outlaw poor people's jobs. They just cause poor people to be paid more since the more money that moves from rich to poor, the richer the whole society gets. You need to keep the money moving.


> The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either

That didn't mean that people were working several jobs to get by, not that they were paying to work. Maybe it was the easily accessible public welfare that forced employers to pay a living wage, or the large proportion of union membership.


This is a misunderstanding on your part as the system was/largely still is simply different There was no government mandated minimum wage but the pay in sectors is negotiated and fixed by negotiation between employer and employee representative organisations per sector. The rise of new kinds of pay models to undercut these systems fueled a push to in addition introduce a minimum wage. For most places the minimum wage does not replace the negotiated rates but just covers sectors for which there's no negotiation system.




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