Contrasting point - I dislike the thought that folks who've "got it good" should just stay quiet and never complain because they are much better off than others. To me, this is immoral and ineffective.
Everyone in a shitty position has a right to speak up. You're absolutely right that some people cannot exercise that right - they can't risk losing what they have. That is unfair to every single person in that situation (and personally, I find this to be a shameful reflection on the world).
But using that to justify that other workers should stay quiet is equally wrong. It's using something wrong happening to one group of people to justify something wrong happening to another group. Even if you don't believe the moral reasoning, there's the pragmatic angle - this attitude leads to overall worse employee treatment. If 'better off' workers are shamed into not discussing poor treatment (because they should be embarrassed complaining about such trivialities), then minor poor treatment is allowed to escalate unchecked.
In my opinion, a better approach overall is to think "all of us have some rights, including good treatment by an employer and a right to a life not straddled by anxiety or debt". Anyone crusading against that is on the same side.
> Contrasting point - I dislike the thought that folks who've "got it good" should just stay quiet and never complain because they are much better off than others. To me, this is immoral and ineffective.
I like to say "Just because other people have it worse doesn't mean my problems aren't problems." I think the argument of "other people have it worse" is very dehumanizing. To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in that suffering (to provide a cliche). Can we just accept that problems are problems and they should be solved, even if trivial? I'm all for finding logistically which ones should be tackled first, but I don't think that commonly applies here.
Agree with what you're saying but it's quite easy for this thread to become an unironic mirror of Silicon Valley. A bunch of folks complaining that the free food at work isn't vegan or that they aren't making humanity better with their CRUD app.
I don't see how a thread around that helps. We already know that more than most other professions, software engineers have options when moving jobs. If you want to be fired, let your boss know.
> or that they aren't making humanity better with their CRUD app.
Feeling like your work isn't positively impacting the world is a very common, completely valid complaint, and isn't specific to "Silicon Valley" at all.
What's your problem with people talking about whether their work feels worthwhile? Why is that any less important of a conversation to have than all the other chatter that goes on here?
It also says something very human. That people want to make the world a better place. I do not understand a complaint against those that are seeking work that is more meaningful and beneficial to humanity. Isn't that exactly the type of work that we (as ... humans...) should be encouraging?
At a big firm:
Good luck getting in on the first round of volunteer layoffs. They always seem to deny developers.
At a startup:
My options vest after 4 years.
The company can remove my options if I quit or I have to buy these options now at crazy valuation and hope the company goes public quickly before the next round dilutes my shares further.
I don't believe developers have no right to complain.
I only hope these types of threads don't become a habit. It promotes a mentality of negativity, in my opinion. It's not constructive for the industry, I don't think.
This is the first thread of this type I've seen on the front page. I don't see any reason it'll be a "habit".
Yes, software engineers are generally well-off, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people in our field who work in toxic environments, or have an over-demanding manager, or feel like they have no potential to grow in their current role, or have mental health issues that are exacerbated by stressful and isolating working conditons, to name a few possible issues. And I'm sure many of those people are hesitant to try to change this situation because they are well-compensated and work in a nice office building. So if a thread like this could nudge them to take that first step, then I'm all for it.
The number of upvotes and comments is an indicator that enough people feel or have felt this way for this thread to be worthwhile.
> _Everyone in a shitty position has a right to speak up._
Yep. But they _don't_ have the right to make anyone else care. Say whatever you want about your own problems, but if your situation is comparatively better, then don't expect people to give a damn. And complaining is not without risk. It's not uncommon to make your situation _even worse_ by speaking out when your problems are comparatively light.
Speaking up in a situation where those who take notice want to help you, that's real courage. Speaking up such that those who notice don't care, that's just whining. The only significant difference is how others interpret your situation, and the primary factor is how your problems compare to others.
Everyone in a shitty position has a right to speak up. You're absolutely right that some people cannot exercise that right - they can't risk losing what they have. That is unfair to every single person in that situation (and personally, I find this to be a shameful reflection on the world).
But using that to justify that other workers should stay quiet is equally wrong. It's using something wrong happening to one group of people to justify something wrong happening to another group. Even if you don't believe the moral reasoning, there's the pragmatic angle - this attitude leads to overall worse employee treatment. If 'better off' workers are shamed into not discussing poor treatment (because they should be embarrassed complaining about such trivialities), then minor poor treatment is allowed to escalate unchecked.
In my opinion, a better approach overall is to think "all of us have some rights, including good treatment by an employer and a right to a life not straddled by anxiety or debt". Anyone crusading against that is on the same side.