Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

I don't agree with this particular articulation of this position. Stoicism says something similar, "recognize what you can affect and don't mourn over the things you cannot affect", but this quote up there is taking it too far. This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people, which would leave politics to unwise people.

I would say: If you try to convince others of something, focus your energy on one thing. You won't be very convincing if you argue "I've heard that X" on 100 topics, but it will be more effective if you go deep into one topic and have a huge number of arguments on standby, with links to further resources, so that you can create a concise and focused rebuttal when that particular topic comes up.



> This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people

Other chapters in the Tao address this objection, by emphasizing the value of humility and leading by example over cleverness and trying to beat people into submission with words.

   Express yourself completely,
   then keep quiet.
   Be like the forces of nature:
   when it blows, there is only wind;
   when it rains, there is only rain;
   when the clouds pass, the sun shines through.
(http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=23&a=Stephen+Mitchell)

   Do you have the patience to wait
   till your mud settles and the water is clear?
   Can you remain unmoving
   till the right action arises by itself?
(http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=15&a=Stephen+Mitchell)

   The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
   When his work is done,
   the people say, "Amazing:
   we did it, all by ourselves!"
(http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=17&a=Stephen+Mitchell)


>beat people into submission with words

There's something oxymoronic about this phrase.


> This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people, which would leave politics to unwise people.

There's convincing with words, and convincing by example.

"The Master does his job" - not necessarily in private or alone. If people see someone successfully accomplishing something, they will follow. For me, seeing something work is a lot more powerful change actor than someone talking in hypotheticals trying to convince me.

If you say something to someone and they are unconvinced, I doubt more prodding will convince them. Eventually they will say they are convinced, just to have you go away, and let them do it the same way. Then they become more entrenched in their beliefs, even if they know it's wrong.

“Every truth has four corners. As a teacher I give you one corner, and it is for you to find the other three.”

–Confucius


> This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people

No, sometimes the master's job is to teach someone something. It's just not all the time or even every time someone is wrong on the internet.


> leave politics to the unwise

To build on quotes from the Tao Te Ching, same translation:

“Throw away holiness and wisdom, and people will be a hundred times happier. Throw away morality and justice, and people will do the right thing. Throw away industry and profit, and there won't be any thieves.

If these three aren't enough, just stay at the center of the circle and let all things take their course.”


At the time and place that quote was written, wisdom referred to leadership, or reliable old people. And leaders would use their physical, mental or monetary abilities instead of talking people down in public display.

This "who can talk better to convince the crowd" business appeared more than once throughout history and was at it's peak effectiveness among the scientific community during the enlightenment phase of europe where your peers are actually as intelligent or more intelligent than you are, and your tools are empirical evidence rather than your charisma.

The idea later reverted to it's hellenistic form of democratic political dialogue which is only effective as the critics of it's listeners, or the demos.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: