There are some smaller German cities like Göttingen which have - in my opinion - a high intellectual atmosphere because they are so called university-cities: lot's of students and academics in a rather small city. And, in comparison with big cities like Berlin or Munich, the rents are much cheaper: from what I know you pay 2/3 to half of the price for the same amount of space.
Example: a flat with 55-60 qm is about 600-900€ in Berlin, and about 400-600€ in Göttingen.
Well.. and if you don't mind high rents: Berlin as the German Silicon Valley has tons of job offers for you, highly diverse and open-minded people and there would be no language barrier because so many people here speak English.
This is true. Lots of other mentions of Germany in this thread with good points. The downsides to Germany that Americans and Canadians (and to a lesser extent British) might perceive:
- Constant store closures. Almost all Sundays and numerous holidays, almost all stores, including groceries, are closed. Don't forget to get milk or you have to trek to the central train station.
- Very bad international food. Even in major German cities, the food (outside of German, Middle Eastern, and some European cuisine) is simply not on par with places like the Bay Area or London.
- Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North American social contexts.
- Lots of bureaucracy and dependency trees of ID and permits, even for simple things like getting a train pass. As a reference, it costs 1500-2000 EUR to get a driver's license in Germany (including mandatory training classes), much higher than in the US or Canada. Also, there is a refugee crisis choking the German immigration system and it may take much longer than normal to get immigration-related matters sorted out.
- More public smoking, including on patios and inside bars and clubs. If you are sensitive to cigarette smoke don't plan to go to any nightclubs.
- Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
Some of this is generic to Europe, much of it less true in Berlin than elsewhere, and there are lots of positives to Germany that have been mentioned in this thread. Good luck!
> - Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
I'm not sure whether you're trying to imply causality between environmental policies and the prevalence of clothes dryers and AC, but you can certainly get those things (although they might need to fulfill some energy-efficiency criteria).
You won't find them in most apartments, but that's because Germans usually don't think they're necessary. Clotheslines continue to work in winter and the number of really hot days is too low for an AC to be worth it.
Just to add my bit here:
- Public smoking in public indoor places is completely banned in Bavaria, including pubs, restaurants and bars.
- No one will forbid you to buy your own dryer in case you're not happy with hanging your clothes on clotheslines. We do have a dedicated clotheslines room in our building thus I never needed a dryer myself (and my clothes are getting dry within 2 days even in the winter)
- ACs are recently getting popular in offices, they're rare in private homes due to too less days we'd have to use them. I thought it was odd what I experienced when working in the States: cooling to 16C in the summer months whereas my colleagues would heat up to 22C in the winter months. I prefer sweating over getting a cold in the summer ;)
- Driver's licenses are valid for a life time and don't need renewal every now and then. We are not allowed to drive with our parents before we do the test. If you're an experienced driver, your (European) driver's license will cost you below the above mentioned # since the price depends on how many driving lessons you will need to do.
- Store closure times depends on which part of the country you live in. Berlin is quite liberal with opening hours whereas the south (especially Bavaria) is quite strict. You get used to it and learn to organize yourself better.
I currently live in Munich which offers a lot of cultural and technical inputs. Meetups are happening frequently and the community is quite active. Housing is quite expensive (if you're in an urgent need for a place to stay) but you can still find affordable housing if you look long enough.
Salary when working for local companies is way above the German average.
"Driving licence validity in Germany. Driving licences are valid for 15 years. Licences issued before 2013, lose their validity at the latest on 19 January 2033."
I'm sure I'm drying my stuff in a dryer. If necessary even in summer (though trying to avoid it when it's warm enough). Also, my employer has AC in all offices ;)
Public smoking depends on the region; where I live it's prohibited for most bars and clubs (at least indoors).
Not saying you're making stuff up, just pointing out you might be a little bit exaggerating ;)
From all the things that are going wrong in Germany, this is the most bizarre compilation I have ever seen (except the food situation). Probably an indicator for how good life is in Germany in general :)
The shop thing is true though, especially in Munich (all of Bavaria really) where stores close at 20:00. Especially when Saturday or Monday are holidays, the rush in shops is like it is the last days of civilization.
Here in Denmark it is no problem to go shopping on Sunday at least until 22:00 at all and even past that it is possible.
It is so much nicer to not have to specifically plan on when to go shopping.
>Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
would you mind explaining this? Most people have driers and public buildings usually have AC. Homes don't have AC but that's because it doesn't (or didn't used to) get too hot
> - Very bad international food. Even in major German cities, the food (outside of German, Middle Eastern, and some European cuisine) is simply not on par with places like the Bay Area or London.
Thank you for saying this. Whenever I tell people this, they look at me like I'm some kind of crazy German hater who is off their rocker. If you're a foodie, Germany is hard. Unless your a fan of the local food. France, the UK, Belgium are generally much better when it comes to tasty noms.
> - Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North American social contexts.
Somewhat counteropinion as a native German: It is much harder to make friends in Germany if you do not speak decent German. So simply learn it.
> - Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during the summer.
Berlin is to be taken with a grain of salt regarding intellectual stimulus though. It really depends on OP's area of interest. Effective Altruism is big, as are some research institutions (Charité, Max-Delbrück Centre & similar) and the topics surrounding this research, but if you're coming from outside the academic system, they are not that accessible.
If intellectual stimulus is what you're after, it's like searching for gold nuggets in Berlin. Not comparable to places like London. Can't compare to smaller German university cities.
> [...] no language barrier because so many people here speak English.
I wonder how you came up with that one. From my experience (I am German myself), Germans are not good at English. It is not so bad within the large cities but in the countryside, good luck. Just take any of the Scandinavian countries and you will find that they have a higher percentage of people speaking English.
Living in Germany without learning German is a hard challenge. However, speaking German with an American accent is sometimes considered cool ;-)
The "no language barrier" point was only for Berlin. I know that in the countryside almost nobody speaks English, but inside the city you will be able to get everything you need. As far as I know most of the government agency employees are required to speak at least basic English.
Berlin only has high rents compared to Berlin a view years ago and some, uhm, small places ;)[1]. Compared to
many European capital cities or at last other large cities in Germany Berlin rents are still quite
ordinary or even cheap (through the 600-900€,
for a 55-60m² are right in Madrid for example
that would be more like 900-1500 and in Munich its
1500+).
[1] not sure how to express this, I mean just because
it's a "small" place it's nor any worse just a bit
different.
One of the good things about Göttingen in particular is that it maintains the same (or similar) intellectual atmosphere at not only a lower cost than the bigger German cities, but also lower than some of the other similarly-sized university towns such as Heidelberg.
Moving from Göttingen to Heidelberg was an easy €200 per month rent increase for similar accommodation. The latter is certainly more scenic, but you pay for that with tourists, noise, etc.
Having said all that, there are plenty more university towns to choose from - but I've only lived in those two specifically myself. In both, the low cost of living is assisted by being able to walk or cycle everywhere around them, negating the need to own a vehicle. I only spent money on public transport if the weather was particularly bad, or when traveling long distance/with luggage.
Berlin is nothing like Silicon Valley. It’s a great city but job offers there are 60-80% lower salaries compared to the US, which makes Berlin being marginally cheaper (but with higher taxes) not really worth it.
The complete elimination of auto expenses helps a lot. And frankly, it's hard to put a price on 6 weeks' _guaranteed_ vacation per year.
And true, salaries are lower, but 60-80%?? Obviously headhunters and published ranges are to be taken with a grain of salt but a HH was trying to entice me with 90k in Berlin for data engineering a while ago and that, while not SV money, is better than "60-80% less"
It's min. 4 Weeks (by law) + national/regional holidays, which differ based on region in Germany and might overlap with Saturday/Sunday if anyone is interested in it. It's still pretty nice.
With a higher education you won't find any job offer with less than 25 days of vacation, usually >= 28. In tech most companies offer 30 days. I've seen some offering 38..
But that's almost everywhere in Europe - salaries being a lot lower than in US, right?
PS. Based on my conversations with a friend who moved from Dallas to Amsterdam. He was in US just for ~3 years after completing his MS. He always wanted to work and live in EU for some years before returning home. He stayed in US for the loan.
Yes - I say this as someone who moved from California to Ireland.
Student loans are nearly evil - not that I think being irresponsible with debt is good, but they currently turn in to a near-prison for far too many people. You could spend 100k on lottery tickets and have an easier time getting it discharged than 100k on student debt.
Is your friend in Amsterdam or Dallas at the moment? I doubt you could find enough money to get me to live in Dallas (well, maybe 7 figures so I could tolerate it briefly and then retire) due to the fact that I quite like being able to commute by bike without dying.
3x isn't really 60-80% though? I understand fb median salaries are 240k usd rightnow, alphabet about 190k usd. Non-faang a fair bit lower. So offers of 70-100k eur in europe, doable in the more expensive bits, would be more like half-ish.
If Berlin salaries are 66% lower than California, then yes, it is 3x. For people like me, I would make about 80% less were I to work in Berlin vs the US.
Says somebody apparently... living in Berlin?
Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of. Rents aside I've not been to many other places where food, shopping and leisure has been as cheap.
Also, OP did not mention he wants to optimise his income?
Calling Berlin "marginally" cheaper than the
Valley is something I'd be highly sceptical of.
Presumably sneak means "Costs of living are lower, but if you salary goes from $150,000 to €50,000 it's not clear you'll be left with higher discretionary income."
Your salary will just not decrease so disproportionately in relative terms. € 50,000 was a starting salary I was offered for a business position straight out of university. Any software engineer, much more so people with experience will earn considerably more. As other's have pointed out, senior positions rather range from 70k - 90k depending on the position and experience.
You can't directly compare the salaries without taking the living cost into account. You get much higher salaries in the US, especially SV, but you also have to pay way more for living. Flats are way more expensive and don't forget stuff like healthcare and so on which is, imo, cheaper in Germany.
10-20% lower salaries is something I would accept but 60-80? Come on.
Absolutely. Berlin is one of the more expensive cities in Germany. I can't speak for Leipzig because I don't know about the "intellectual atmosphere" OP is talking about. Just know that Göttingen is a good example because I have a friend that lives there.
And 10 years from now we'll be talking about.. I dunno, Offenburg? Within Germany places like Leipzig and Tubingen seem very appealing (though I quite fancied a 600 year old house in Rothenburg Ob der Tauber - car free towns are lovely)
Well.. and if you don't mind high rents: Berlin as the German Silicon Valley has tons of job offers for you, highly diverse and open-minded people and there would be no language barrier because so many people here speak English.